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Steve Wozniak suffers minor stroke

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Steve Wozniak suffers minor stroke

#141

Post by anonymouskimmer »

fastball wrote: post #140
anonymouskimmer wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, we Gorillas know that stronger arms and bites are going to be important for future generations. "It takes all kinds to make a world" isn't just a saying about polite tolerance. It isn't altruistic to value one person's life more than another for their demonstrated ability to contribute what you think is best. That is literally egocentric selfishness, which is pretty much the opposite of altruism. I think the wo…

With regards to the gorilla analogy, I think for all intents and purposes we've already knee-capped the evolutionary process of humanity with modern medicine (not going backwards ala Idiocracy, but not going forwards either). We might need to be a little bit "picky" (read: deliberate) in the future if we want to keep progressing. I believe this is the ethos of trans-humanists. I'm not Steve Wozniak so if I did want h…

> I'm also unsure why you think whichever human is "replacing" Woz in this hypothetical is going to up the level of diversity.

My "all kinds" cite wasn't meant to be about diversity per se, but about new people. Additionally, youth brings with it a native understanding that age (barring possible global amnesia) can't.

> I'm not Steve Wozniak so if I did want him to be immortal I'm pretty sure that would not be selfishness.

I'm not trying to pull the Nazi card here, it's just the first parallel I can think of: Hitler wasn't blonde haired nor particularly tall, yet his desire for a race of tall, blonde, blue-eyed Aryans was still egocentric.

> Intelligent life is not zero-sum

No, for many other sentient terrestrial species, and even non-sentient ones, human life is negative sum.

Regardless, human society would have to fragment quite a bit for older folks in this hypothetical world of immortality to not dominate opportunities for the younger folks. I hope this happens, but am skeptical enough I assume it's more likely that domineering paternalism is more likely to grow.

Re: Steve Wozniak suffers minor stroke

#142

Post by anonymouskimmer »

fastball wrote: post #140
anonymouskimmer wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, we Gorillas know that stronger arms and bites are going to be important for future generations. "It takes all kinds to make a world" isn't just a saying about polite tolerance. It isn't altruistic to value one person's life more than another for their demonstrated ability to contribute what you think is best. That is literally egocentric selfishness, which is pretty much the opposite of altruism. I think the wo…

With regards to the gorilla analogy, I think for all intents and purposes we've already knee-capped the evolutionary process of humanity with modern medicine (not going backwards ala Idiocracy, but not going forwards either). We might need to be a little bit "picky" (read: deliberate) in the future if we want to keep progressing. I believe this is the ethos of trans-humanists. I'm not Steve Wozniak so if I did want h…

> I'm also unsure why you think whichever human is "replacing" Woz in this hypothetical is going to up the level of diversity.

Also, if we're positing indefinite limits to the number of humans, then an immortal wouldn't be replacing one person, but the whole series of persons their extended life is taking the place of (and would be altering all lineages descended from those persons).

Re: Steve Wozniak suffers minor stroke

#143

Post by fastball »

anonymouskimmer wrote: post #141
fastball wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With regards to the gorilla analogy, I think for all intents and purposes we've already knee-capped the evolutionary process of humanity with modern medicine (not going backwards ala Idiocracy, but not going forwards either). We might need to be a little bit "picky" (read: deliberate) in the future if we want to keep progressing. I believe this is the ethos of trans-humanists. I'm not Steve Wozniak so if I did want h…

> I'm also unsure why you think whichever human is "replacing" Woz in this hypothetical is going to up the level of diversity. My "all kinds" cite wasn't meant to be about diversity per se, but about new people. Additionally, youth brings with it a native understanding that age (barring possible global amnesia) can't. > I'm not Steve Wozniak so if I did want him to be immortal I'm pretty sure that would not be selfis…

Probably I shouldn't play into Godwin's Law, but what the hell.

How can you say with a straight face "Hitler liked blue-eyed people, this is very egocentric of him as a person without blue eyes"? Makes no sense. Was Hitler egocentric? Most certainly. Is his ideas of Aryan supremacy a good example of that? Clearly not, as you so succinctly pointed out.

Back to the actual point: if the immortals actually made life shitter for everyone else, you can assume they would be French Revolution'd without too much overture.

Re: Steve Wozniak suffers minor stroke

#144

Post by schiffern »

jojobas wrote: post #97
schiffern wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we can't grow exponentially forever! We can't grow exponentially forever in space either . Somehow this gets forgotten. O(N^t) > O(t^3), for all N > 1 Here t^3 is the future light-cone of Earth, ie this assumes [trans]humanity expands at the speed of light and instantly colonizes all matter. This is an optimistic upper bound IMO.

Something something heat death of the universe.

The two are apples and oranges, by a factor of a billion.

The heat death of the universe is trillions of years off. However even assuming a modest 3% annual growth, humanity runs out of matter in only a few thousand years.

What's nine orders of magnitude between friends? ;)

Re: Steve Wozniak suffers minor stroke

#145

Post by jodrellblank »

epups wrote: post #135
jodrellblank wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how many of those people who want immortality currently avoid smoking, drinking, drugs, air pollution, junk food, get long sleep every night and regular exercise - all those things that are much easier than immortality and can meaningfully increase the chances of adding one, two, three decades of quality life. And then avoid social media, clickbait, ragebait, idling, gossipping, and live in a deliberate and…

Not sure this is equivalent. Those decades of life are usually worst ones, and merely doubling your lifespan with sacrifice is not equivalent to multiplying it indefinitely.

Handwaving away 15-25% of your adult life with "usually the worst bit" doesn't sit well with me, neither does the "merely" in "merely doubling your lifespan".

Y'know, given that "multiplying it indefinitely" is not actually an available option, whereas not dying at 72 from lung problems from a lifetime of smoking after several years of being nearly housebound then almost chairbound is an available option.

Re: Steve Wozniak suffers minor stroke

#146

Post by anonymouskimmer »

fastball wrote: post #143
anonymouskimmer wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm also unsure why you think whichever human is "replacing" Woz in this hypothetical is going to up the level of diversity. My "all kinds" cite wasn't meant to be about diversity per se, but about new people. Additionally, youth brings with it a native understanding that age (barring possible global amnesia) can't. > I'm not Steve Wozniak so if I did want him to be immortal I'm pretty sure that would not be selfis…

Probably I shouldn't play into Godwin's Law, but what the hell. How can you say with a straight face "Hitler liked blue-eyed people, this is very egocentric of him as a person without blue eyes"? Makes no sense. Was Hitler egocentric? Most certainly. Is his ideas of Aryan supremacy a good example of that? Clearly not, as you so succinctly pointed out. Back to the actual point: if the immortals actually made life shit…

His ideas of Aryan supremacy fed into his ego-drive for a 'superior race' as his legacy. It is our ego that strives to leave a legacy, and when this ego tramples on or disregards the legacy of others, it is egocentric.

When I was looking this up I discovered that Hitler did, apparently, have blue eyes.

> if the immortals actually made life shitter for everyone else, you can assume they would be French Revolution'd without too much overture.

The most proximate cause of the French Revolution was a tax on the aristocratic classes, and increased taxes in general, quite similar to the American Revolution: https://www.britannica.com/event/French-Revolution

Another cause was shared with the Russian Revolution: Gradually increasing rights for the hoi polloi that made them acutely aware of the unjustness of the constraints that still existed.

The aristocrats provided the wealth, and the hoi polloi provided the numbers. But in an immortality scenario the aristocrats are being given a privilege, not taxed against it. Or if this immortality is available to all, then the old immortals may outnumber the youth.

In the case of France, an emperor replaced a king. In the case of Russia, a dictator replaced a czar. In the US the previously existing legislatures continued ruling, but without oversight.

Re: Steve Wozniak suffers minor stroke

#147

Post by upwardbound »

jojobas wrote: post #138
upwardbound wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do hope that our civilization starts someday putting substantial research funding into moonshot bets to escape this limiting ending. For example, if we eventually have multiple star systems' worth of resources at our disposal, then I hope we put at least a trillion dollars per topic into long-shot research topics such as time travel, the multiverse, FTL travel, methods of creating new universes via an artificial Bi…

One in a million FTL and time travel? No, there's not another tree. We just happen to be rather efficient in dissipating free energy.

Keep in mind that anything is possible if the Cosmological Principle turns out to be false, and if we can travel far enough to escape our local zone.

For example, there might turn out to be particle types which don't exist at all in our zone, but which are force carriers for forces that enable time travel or other violations of causality. We might have evolved in a zone with zero of these particles simply because it's hard for life to evolve in a zone without causality. Our zone might be a life-friendly little bubble beyond which things get truly strange, but where with appropriately designed nanotechnology, we might achieve incredible things we've never before observed, including changing the past or even stepping entirely outside of the fabric of spacetime into someplace with more or fewer spatial dimensions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmological_principle

So, 1 in a million is my approximate a priori estimate of the odds of the Cosmological Principle being false in a useful way.

For a fun example of fiction that takes place in a setting where the Cosmological Principle is false, check out A Fire Upon the Deep by Vernor Vinge. The zone where Earth is situated, and where the laws of physics are the same as in our observed reality, is called the Slow Zone. There are three other types of zones with other laws, called the Beyond, the Transcend, and the Unthinking Depths.

Re: Steve Wozniak suffers minor stroke

#148

Post by piuantiderp »

moralestapia wrote: post #40
piuantiderp wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, that sounds like third-world kind of treatment. I would consider suing. Sorry that your mom had to go through this.

>that sounds like third-world kind of treatment You wish you had third-world medical treatment, though. Having been many times to hospitals in several 1st world countries AND several 3rd world countries, I do not find the former much better than the latter and the 10x-100x price markup is hard to ignore.

Fully agree, the quality of private healthcare in the third-world for common conditions and ailments could be even higher than the first. If they are not being stingy with treatment because everything costs a lot and they're understaffed, then they are thinking what to overtreat because it'll bring in the money. Health of course, is just a secondary concern

PS: Btw Rulopotamus-related? (he was a minor celebrity, loved professor in a certain college in some place of this galaxy)

Re: Steve Wozniak suffers minor stroke

#149

Post by jojobas »

upwardbound wrote: post #147
jojobas wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One in a million FTL and time travel? No, there's not another tree. We just happen to be rather efficient in dissipating free energy.

Keep in mind that anything is possible if the Cosmological Principle turns out to be false, and if we can travel far enough to escape our local zone. For example, there might turn out to be particle types which don't exist at all in our zone, but which are force carriers for forces that enable time travel or other violations of causality. We might have evolved in a zone with zero of these particles simply because it'…

Science fiction is great and all, but I'd rate this probability more like the inverse of stupid large numbers brought to us by Knuth's up-arrow notation.

Re: Steve Wozniak suffers minor stroke

#150

Post by upwardbound »

jojobas wrote: post #149
upwardbound wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep in mind that anything is possible if the Cosmological Principle turns out to be false, and if we can travel far enough to escape our local zone. For example, there might turn out to be particle types which don't exist at all in our zone, but which are force carriers for forces that enable time travel or other violations of causality. We might have evolved in a zone with zero of these particles simply because it'…

Science fiction is great and all, but I'd rate this probability more like the inverse of stupid large numbers brought to us by Knuth's up-arrow notation.

Could be! Your estimate is as valid as mine.

I suppose that to approach a topic like this, we can reason in the classical-logic manner of the ancient Greeks and others who sought to understand their universe without yet having the instruments to make necessary observations. What I mean is, without our civilization having seen evidence either way yet, the question of what is a good prior probability is only able to be informed through non-empirical means, such as the philosophy of science (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunrise_problem ), philosophy of knowledge (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle ), and theology (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_of_all_possible_worlds ).

Another similar topic about which we must reason without having yet made any applicable observations is the question of whether our universe is a simulation. If it is, then it is possible that a sufficiently well-constructed prayer (message to the system administrators) could have causal effects.

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