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AWS to start charging for IPv4 usage, but critical services don't support IPv6

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Re: AWS to start charging for IPv4 usage, but critical services don't support IPv6

#151
post #3

IPv6 and Python3 are case studies in how not to roll out a new version unless you're cool with multi-decade upgrade windows.

At least with Python3, there was eventually Python 2.7 to permit a compatibility layer to move over. It took ages, but there was at least a "best effort" to help people write code that could be easily moved between 2 and 3. (In spite of apparent behavior from the Python developers at the time). IPv6's hard break with IPv4 means that the switchover likely won't happen anytime soon.

> At least with Python3, there was eventually Python 2.7 to permit a compatibility layer to move over. [...] IPv6's hard break with IPv4 means that the switchover likely won't happen anytime soon.

There was no hard break. The same way you have compatibility layers between Python 3.x and Python 2.7, we have compatibility layers between IPv4 and IPv6. For instance, 6to4 meant that anyone with an IPv4 address automatically had an IPv6 network, and could talk to IPv6 hosts; I used it for a while, and it worked nicely. Another one was Teredo, which worked even if your IPv4 host was behind an IPv4 NAT. Nowadays, the preference is for newer transition mechanisms, like NAT64/DNS64 and 464XLAT. On the software side, IPv4-mapped IPv6 addresses allow software written for IPv6 to transparently use the host's IPv4 stack to connect to an IPv4 address; this last one is very similar to the preferred approach of writing Python 3 code and using a compatibility layer to make it run on Python 2.7.

Re: AWS to start charging for IPv4 usage, but critical services don't support IPv6

#152
post #129
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IP addresses were intended to be a public good. The fact that AWS has monopolized so many of them, and now that they own a significant fraction of them is deciding to charge for them. It's ridiculous.

So far as I'm aware IP addresses exist out of a functional need, not a moral imperative, but if you have a source with regards to that I'd love to read it. You can hardly call the number of IPv4 addresses that AWS has a monopoly either, iirc they have something like 2% of the IPv4 space? Not charging for them was comparatively strange given that other cloud providers have been charging for them for a good long while.…

> So far as I'm aware IP addresses exist out of a functional need, not a moral imperative, but if you have a source with regards to that I'd love to read it.

OK

https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/19/16792306/fcc-net-neutral...

"For Licklider, this wasn’t just a new technology, but a new way for human beings to exist in the world."

Re: AWS to start charging for IPv4 usage, but critical services don't support IPv6

#153
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IP addresses were intended to be a public good. The fact that AWS has monopolized so many of them, and now that they own a significant fraction of them is deciding to charge for them. It's ridiculous.

> IP addresses were intended to be a public good. Were they though? The first few blocks auctioned off all went to large tech institutions

Yes, see my reply to the other commenter above.

Re: AWS to start charging for IPv4 usage, but critical services don't support IPv6

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You just support longer addresses, that's it. There is no "just" in this. Copy-pasting from my other comment: -- IPv4 data structures have four bytes/octets (4B) for addresses. So how do you fit 8B of addresses in 4B structures? You don't. So you have to update every network element—host (desktop, laptop, mobile, embedded), router, switch, firewall—to have a new data structure (and maybe new function/system calls,…

Building it is the same amount of work as building ipv6 support. Adopting it is not the same work as adopting v6. We already have ubiquitous v6 hardware/software support, but it's a whole 'nother thing to actually use it. 1. Add v4.1 support, but keep using 32-bit addresses. 2. Start using >32-bit addresses when ready. By the way, the WWW has gone through transitions like adopting HTTPS and banning old versions of TL…

> 1. Add v4.1 support, but keep using 32-bit addresses. 2. Start using >32-bit addresses when ready.

When who is ready? Different people/organizations will be ready at different times.

Some people will not be able to get IPv4 addresses so will be 'stuck' with being IPv4.1-only.

Given the finite IPv4 addresses, some will move the IPv4 addresses to revenue-generating areas and will go IPv4.1-only internally—which is what prompted Microsoft to be IPv6-only/first internally: their IPv4 addresses got sent to Azure:

* https://www.arin.net/blog/2019/04/03/microsoft-works-toward-...

And once that happens, which it would inevitably too with IPv4.1, we're at:

If you have a IPv4-only network elements/devices, they cannot talk to IPv4.1-only devices/services (and vice verse), so you have to create translation mechanisms because some devices may not yet have the update 8B-capable network stack. And sometimes an IPv4.1 network is an island in a sea of IPv4, so you have to have tunneling. Of course some may have both IPv4 and IPv4.1, and want to talk to something has also has IPv4 and IPv4.1, so now you have to have code for source/destination selection.

Re: AWS to start charging for IPv4 usage, but critical services don't support IPv6

#155

Do the other cloud providers give you IPv4 endpoints for free? I didn't think that was the case. (ie I thought AWS was just falling into line with the others on charging). As for the "critical services not supporting IPv6" in the post I was quite surprised that it's such a short list of things that don't work - I would have expected more. They've obviously made a ton of progress.

Oracle Cloud does. Linode did, I don't know if they still do. I believe Vultr may. It would take some time for someone to research all cloud providers.

Re: AWS to start charging for IPv4 usage, but critical services don't support IPv6

#156

One day will come, when network admins will be so happy to finally turn off IPv4 on their stack. When router manufacturers will feel happy to support only IPv6. It is definitely coming within my lifetime. So, these intermediate steps are just cooking the final dish. Peace. ;)

IPv6 is a privacy nightmare, no privacy technology designed to fix IPv6, fixes it.

Re: AWS to start charging for IPv4 usage, but critical services don't support IPv6

#157

One day will come, when network admins will be so happy to finally turn off IPv4 on their stack. When router manufacturers will feel happy to support only IPv6. It is definitely coming within my lifetime. So, these intermediate steps are just cooking the final dish. Peace. ;)

IPv6 is a privacy nightmare, no privacy technology designed to fix IPv6, fixes it.

How is it any worse than IPv4?

Re: AWS to start charging for IPv4 usage, but critical services don't support IPv6

#158
post #16

would be interested to see what they do to their lightsail prices if you add these new charges onto the existing prices their offering becomes completely uncompetitive

The comment by Adi Santhanam[1] who is an AWS product manager for networking has indicated a Lightsail pricing increase for IPv4 later this year[2]. > Yes, Lightsail is revising instance bundle pricing to accommodate IPv4 and new pricing will be published later this year. We understand the importance of bundled and predictable pricing for Lightsail, so revised pricing will include the IPv4 conservation charge in a mo…

> IPv4 conservation charge

It's stunning, the hypocrisy that permeates Amazon now. I left AWS Lightsail for Oracle Cloud. When they announced Prime members would be shown Ads in movies and shows, we cancelled Prime.

Re: AWS to start charging for IPv4 usage, but critical services don't support IPv6

#159

To be fair I have a bunch of instances with public IP addresses just so I can ssh into them easily. This situation made me look into how I'd get into these instances otherwise and indeed you can set up an appropriate endpoint and then run "aws ec2 instance-connect" to make a tunnel that gets you an ssh connection without needing the public IP, so just like that my needs for public IPs actually goes down pretty drasti…

Don't overlook SSM https://docs.aws.amazon.com/AWSEC2/latest/UserGuide/session-... > which doesn't require sshd nor public access to get onto a machine and one can opt in to a bunch of audit logging if that's your jam. They also have some "ansible-y" behavior about running playbooks against groups of instances, but I haven't had good experiences with that process in order to recommend it. It's just a small bonus that…

I really like SSM, and for specifically for Windows RDP, the port forwarding feature. When combined with SSO, proper policies and tagging, you can do away with SSH keys, bastion hosts and VPNs.

Re: AWS to start charging for IPv4 usage, but critical services don't support IPv6

#160

Hmm... How much is human psychology - Scarce & Expensive is Desirable; Cheap & Plentiful is Low Class - discouraging migration from IPv4 to IPv6?

I think you have it the wrong way around. Scarce & Desirable is Expensive; Low Class & Plentiful is Cheap It doesn't always go both ways.

Na, cause if it's scarce and you charge a lot it becomes desirable - is a psych trick.
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