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People no longer know how much to tip

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Re: People no longer know how much to tip

#161

Post by booleandilemma »

eesmith wrote: post #157
jononomo wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember the days when it never crossed anyone's mind to tip a barber.

When was this era? Here is a guidebook for US army officers in 1984, https://archive.org/details/DTIC_ADA166412/page/n49/mode/2up... : > There are certain individuals who perform services for you who should be tipped if you expect to receive good service. ... Tip a barber at least 15 percent; however, as much as 2 dollars may be appropriate in some establishments if multiple services are performed. The Hertz Survival…

He just wanted to sound old and insightful :)

"I remember the days", lol

Re: People no longer know how much to tip

#162

Post by em-bee »

makeitdouble wrote: post #160
em-bee wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"they've tried a lot of options and this one stuck as the most pragmatic at a social level" i am very skeptical of that claim. many cultural practices are done because they have always been done that way. and the reasons they evolved is long forgotten

Cultural practices that don't match the current society either have such a low impact that getting rid of them isn't a priority, or they're not long for this world. Sometimes practices can feel completely at odds with one's believes, but if they're still widely adopted it usually means influential parts of society are still relying on them.

tipping came out of a need of rich people to show off their wealth. i don't think anyone remembers that. tips were given to servants who, in some way or form had a full-time job (or were slaves) with food and a place to sleep. they likely had bad working and living conditions and were being exploited by todays standards, but that wasn't the reason they got tips.

those societies that don't have a culture of tipping, probably never had it to begin with.

if they're still widely adopted it usually means influential parts of society are still relying on them.

the problem with this is that waiters didn't start out relying on tips. that came later. essentially waiters are now being exploited by their employers. and that exploitation is being enabled through tipping. but now it's hard to change that, unless waiters start to demand more pay.

Re: People no longer know how much to tip

#163

Post by catchnear4321 »

denysvitali wrote: post #97
MuffinFlavored wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It can sound controversial, but can we please stop with tipping altogether? What does the average tip-receiving worker who isn't a bartender/waiter/waitress look like wage wise? Probably $14/hr base salary, get a split $20 worth of tips a night Say you work 6 hours a night. $104 -> $84 is like getting a 20% paycut. Reworded: > It can sound controversial, but can we cut all barista pay/takeout food baggers pay/etc.…

Do we tip cashiers? Nope Should their salary be paid with the revenue the shop is making? Yes Why should that be different in bars and restaurants?

cashier optimizes for speed and efficiency, if it takes more than a couple of minutes to check out the it took too long.

waiter, it varies, but if they spend as much time on the table as a cashier, that is usually seen as poor service.

there are also plenty of businesses with cashiers with tip jars, or tip screens. have been for years. some places, and this gets a bit wild, some places don’t even have tip jars. you just put the extra money in their hand. the employee may ask if you meant it, or may just understand that you did. some assume, but they tend to lose tips over time.

whether tips should exist and whether tips exist are two separate things. loosely coupled at present.

not to say tipping is good, but neither is your argument against it.

Re: People no longer know how much to tip

#164

Post by [deleted] »

em-bee wrote: post #162
makeitdouble wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cultural practices that don't match the current society either have such a low impact that getting rid of them isn't a priority, or they're not long for this world. Sometimes practices can feel completely at odds with one's believes, but if they're still widely adopted it usually means influential parts of society are still relying on them.

tipping came out of a need of rich people to show off their wealth. i don't think anyone remembers that. tips were given to servants who, in some way or form had a full-time job (or were slaves) with food and a place to sleep. they likely had bad working and living conditions and were being exploited by todays standards, but that wasn't the reason they got tips. those societies that don't have a culture of tipping, p…

[deleted]

Re: People no longer know how much to tip

#165

Post by denysvitali »

catchnear4321 wrote: post #163
denysvitali wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do we tip cashiers? Nope Should their salary be paid with the revenue the shop is making? Yes Why should that be different in bars and restaurants?

cashier optimizes for speed and efficiency, if it takes more than a couple of minutes to check out the it took too long. waiter, it varies, but if they spend as much time on the table as a cashier, that is usually seen as poor service. there are also plenty of businesses with cashiers with tip jars, or tip screens. have been for years. some places, and this gets a bit wild, some places don’t even have tip jars. you j…

Sorry - my european centric view might have skewed my argument a bit. I have never seen a tipping jar in a shop in Europe

Re: People no longer know how much to tip

#166

Post by ryandvm »

Mindless2112 wrote: post #95
denysvitali wrote: post #14

It can sound controversial, but can we please stop with tipping altogether? Leaving aside for a second the fact that now tipping is basically asked everywhere (even at automated machines) - as an European I consider it an extremely stupid trend. If you're "forced" to tip, then it's not a tip anymore. The concept of tipping, at least in Switzerland, has always been to show gratitude for an *exceptional* service. I tot…

People are innumerate/irrational and cannot understand the difference (or lack thereof) in pricing at restaurants that do not accept tips. See [1]. I've become convinced that the only way tipping is going away in America is if it is made illegal. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqHKMovMWaQ&t=149s

You are absolutely right. It's a collective action problem in extremely large cohorts (regional/national populations). As such, it can probably only be realistically solved by legislation banning the practice. Individual action on the issue is ineffective and victimizes the wrong parties.

The good news (?) is that tipping in the US has strange sociological effects that make it a good target for legislation. It has been found that various groups are more or less likely to A) leave a tip and B) receive a tip. That makes it pretty clearly a discriminatory practice.

Re: People no longer know how much to tip

#167

Post by jononomo »

booleandilemma wrote: post #161
eesmith wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When was this era? Here is a guidebook for US army officers in 1984, https://archive.org/details/DTIC_ADA166412/page/n49/mode/2up... : > There are certain individuals who perform services for you who should be tipped if you expect to receive good service. ... Tip a barber at least 15 percent; however, as much as 2 dollars may be appropriate in some establishments if multiple services are performed. The Hertz Survival…

He just wanted to sound old and insightful :) "I remember the days", lol

It was the 1980s.

Re: People no longer know how much to tip

#168

Post by makeitdouble »

em-bee wrote: post #162
makeitdouble wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cultural practices that don't match the current society either have such a low impact that getting rid of them isn't a priority, or they're not long for this world. Sometimes practices can feel completely at odds with one's believes, but if they're still widely adopted it usually means influential parts of society are still relying on them.

tipping came out of a need of rich people to show off their wealth. i don't think anyone remembers that. tips were given to servants who, in some way or form had a full-time job (or were slaves) with food and a place to sleep. they likely had bad working and living conditions and were being exploited by todays standards, but that wasn't the reason they got tips. those societies that don't have a culture of tipping, p…

>> influential parts of society are still relying on them.

> waiters are now being exploited by their employers

So yes, employers are relying on tips to exploit waiters, and they have more influence on their society than the waiters.

To answer your point on societies that don't have a tipping culture (I guess you mean a vibrant tipping culture. I don't think there is any society with absolutely no tipping whatsoever): when the balance of influence changes, culture also changes.

As an example, French people had a wider tipping culture, but workers fought for higher minimum wages, stronger right, and gave the finger to conditions where they need tips to make a living, or even get paid fairly. Cafes and restaurants moved to baked in service fees, and staff doesn't expect any tip as they don't need to. Employees had more influence than their employers and the situation changed.

Re: People no longer know how much to tip

#169

Post by eesmith »

jononomo wrote: post #167
booleandilemma wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He just wanted to sound old and insightful :) "I remember the days", lol

It was the 1980s.

You should bear in mind that just because you didn't tip the barber, and perhaps no one you knew tipped the barber, that doesn't mean no one thought to do so.

As I've shown, it's been a common practice for a long time.

Here's some more data points for the 1980s:

A 1989 book for teens on etiquette says you tip your barber $1 or more: https://archive.org/details/dearteenager00swan/page/180/mode...

In a 1987 sociology textbook comparing the US system with the jajmani system at https://archive.org/details/introductiontoan0000barn_n9p2/pa... :

"In the United States a man who wants to get a haircut goes to a barbershop, waits for his turn, has his hair cut, pays for this service, and gives the barber a tip. If he lives in a city, he may go to many barbershops in the course of a year, not being obliged to patronize the same one all the time."

To be sure, this could also be a class issue. I grew up in a working class family and it wasn't until I was 26 or so that I learned (some, richer) people always tipped the housekeeper at the end of a hotel stay.

Re: People no longer know how much to tip

#170

Post by ehnto »

pauldenton wrote: post #153
ehnto wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tipping is not quite everywhere, Australia and Japan come to mind. Tipping boggles my mind as it is such an obvious manipulation of both the customer and the employee, by the employer. Don't make it my job to figure out your financials, I am just here to eat. Price your service properly and pay your workers.

I understand culturally Japan is different, but what is to stop Australian business owners from shifting the burden of paying employees from themselves to Tippers?

Minimum wage requirements as I understand it, the current national minimum wage here is 23.23AUD or 14.73 USD per hour, plus 25% loading for casuals, plus 11% super annuation (basically mandatory 401k the employer pays), and 1.5-2x pay for odd hours or weekend work (depends on a few factors which rate you get). These are upheld by the federal government so it's a pretty broad and effective set value in the employment market. You wouldn't get far trying to pay less.

Some US states are around that recently which is cool to see. There is also a culture of fairness or "The Fair Go" in Australia, which puts a bit of pressure on working conditions in the right direction.

Not perfectly applied and not true for every business of course. There is still exploitive businesses who will take advantage of international students and other people in tough spots for cash in hand work or through wage theft (work without pay, not supplying correct breaks etc).

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