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Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it

macworld.com

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Re: Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can't make RAM upgradeable and have unified memory architecture Silicon Graphics did it in the 90s, x86 laptops do something similar but it's not true UMA AFAIU mostly due to software / graphics API limitations. > that makes Apple Silicon good. Good interplay between CPU and GPU, the major advantage of UMA, does nothing for raw CPU performance. What I find attractive about Apple silicon is that it has very high…

>x86 laptops do something similar but it's not true UMA AFAIU mostly due to software / graphics API limitations. They don't. They pre-allocate a portion of the memory to the iGPU and the CPU can't access that memory. It's not nearly the same unified memory we're talking about. >Good interplay between CPU and GPU, the major advantage of UMA, does nothing for raw CPU performance. What I find attractive about Apple sili…

> They pre-allocate a portion of the memory to the iGPU and the CPU can't access that memory

I don't recall the details, yes there's a BIOS setting to assign memory to the GPU, but that doesn't actually limit the memory used by the GPU. With any current OS and driver, the actual amount of memory used is set dynamically at runtime. The rest is as I said an API (OpenGL / DirectX pre 12) limitation.

https://docplayer.net/88302897-Memory-management-in-vulkan-a...

Page 20:

Memory types: AMD APU

● Memory is really unified – all heaps are equally fast.

Meaning the application can allocate a buffer on such a heap, load/generate some data into it, and "hand it over to" (just means promise not to change it concurrently without notifying) the GPU. No copies, the GPU can now use it. [In contrast, different memory types on non-UMA systems are best for uploads (to GPU), downloads (from GPU), frequent use, one-time use... of buffers]

So, what's left of Apple's UMA advantage is, I don't know? Maybe a unified cache. Not a big deal, graphics working sets are much larger than any L3 cache. Oh, and marketing language.

Re: Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it

#143
> As I write this, with just a handful of browser tabs open, Slack, and a distraction-free writing app (iA Writer—it’s great), I’m consuming just about 11GB on my M2 MacBook Air.

Yeah it does not matter how memory you have, the system is supposed to use as much as it can from it. So this does not mean anything. I’m not saying 8GiB is enough, just that this particular sentence makes no sense.

Re: Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it

#144

I don't understand... I routinely run my M1 Air with 4 instances of jetbrains IDEs, have dual screen, Safari with tens of tabs, additional apps like Rocket chat and more... and the machine never go past 8gb ram. What's going on with others ?

Tens? try hundreds of tabs, across three browsers. also Docker.

Why should I use hundreds of tabs ? I don't think I could even use this, I'd be lost. Also Why should I use Docker ?

From the article:

> Yes, you need more than 8GB

No, I don't.

Re: Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it

#145
post #60

I have two M1 Airs with 8gb apiece, run standard webdev loads with docker and over 100 tabs on each, and have zero issues ever. The memory management is absurd, and since I'm not working with large datasets, I'm happy. 32gb is my minimum on any other machine.

same here: both firefox and chrome open, VScode, terminal, multiple dev apps, node processes, PDF reader, Bunch of terminal processes, etc. Memory pressure is green. Its almost like they dont believe us. Sure 8GB sounds stingy, but I'd only need to upgrade if I started using VMs that gobbled up memory for themselves.

Re: Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it

#146

8GB is still good enough for office workers and students. Heck, I used an M1 8GB Air for 1 year as a dev. Although I wish I had more RAM, it still served me well. For $899 (on sale sometimes), the 8GB M2 Air is absolutely a steal. The screen quality, thinness, battery life, build quality, SoC, quietness, coolness, metal enclosure, touchpad, and speakers are simply unmatched by anything in the PC world at that price -…

No it's not. A ton of programs used by regular people (Chrome etc.) are RAM hogs, if you are a dev, then Docker is also an egregious example. If you happen to play games (a big thing for average people), that 8GB will be shared between the CPU and the GPU. Even the Steam Deck, admittedly a budget device, comes with 16GB. It's often mentioned that macOS is more frugal with RAM, a claim which I flat out found to be unt…

> if you are a dev, then Docker is also an egregious example

I'm glad I stuck with embedded development. The biggest resource-hog I interact with regularly is GCC.

I can be productive on a P3 with 256M of RAM.

Re: Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Native apps aren't automatically less bloated, take Xcode vs VSCode for instance What about them? XCode is quite efficient with memory, and it by definition doesn't pass everything through a interpret+JIT for a higher level language.

IME (and I work with both every day), Xcode is slower for almost every UI interaction than VSCode on the same machine. It already starts with Xcode's extremely slow startup, just now it took 15(!) seconds for Xcode to cold-start. And that's on a 32 GBytes M1 Pro.

It really depends on the size of the workspace your loading.

Try opening some heinously large project with 100+ dylibs (react-native) compared against a lean, statically linked single module workspace. You can have them open side by side and it’s like experiencing hell and heaven simultaneously.

Re: Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it

#148

8GB is still good enough for office workers and students. Heck, I used an M1 8GB Air for 1 year as a dev. Although I wish I had more RAM, it still served me well. For $899 (on sale sometimes), the 8GB M2 Air is absolutely a steal. The screen quality, thinness, battery life, build quality, SoC, quietness, coolness, metal enclosure, touchpad, and speakers are simply unmatched by anything in the PC world at that price -…

> On a slightly related note: $/GB for RAM hit a wall starting in 2011

Now that's just disingenuous, it's a log scale and it shows that memory prices fell 40% from 2012 to 2022.

Apple charges $200 to upgrade M1 Macbook Air from 8GB to 16GB.

A comparable 8GB stick of DDR4-3600 costs $25 retail.

Re: Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it

#149
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's why I said normal office workers and students. Costing 9 hundos a piece, Air is not something a regular company would buy for their employees. They're more likely to buy a budget laptop in the 400-500 range which you can bet will do just fine for office work, and you can always upgrade it if necessary. If a company really does need their employees to work a Mac, they will have to cough out a lot more for the…

> They're more likely to buy a budget laptop in the 400-500 range I'd imagine the TCO on those bargain basement laptops is terrible, so I doubt they're really a big sell for corporate buyers.

Not necessarily - it depends how easily you can upgrade off-the shelf NVMs and RAM, and how much RAM its motherboard supports.

Re: Apple has a memory problem and we're all paying for it

#150
post #11

When I started my current job they gave me an M1 Mac with 8GB because it’s what they had on hand. I could barely run my IDE and a web browser. At least 1GB was for video memory, and it was swapping constantly. I couldn’t run docker containers because of how much input lag I would get. 8GB is barely usable and shouldn’t even be an option for a Pro machine. I used it for a week before switching to a personal desktop wi…

8 Gb is fine, running docker on a dev instance is not

> running docker on a dev instance is not

Why? This is what Docker is for.

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