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PHP Sucks, But It Doesn't Matter

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Re: PHP Sucks, But It Doesn't Matter

#61

Post by NameNickHN »

I don't see why a couple of badly named functions can make a whole language crappy.

All those people bashing PHP suffer from some kind of superior complex. It's like bullies beating up the ugly nerdy kid that has glasses and pimples.

Or maybe it's just envy that something, that might not win the next language design contest can be so popular.

To all the PHP haters out there: hate away. I don't care. All the other PHP programmers making a living don't care. Mark Zuckerberg clearly doesn't care.

It's time to grow up, people.

Re: PHP Sucks, But It Doesn't Matter

#62

Post by ericd »

pestaa wrote: post #54
foolinator wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know why it's successful. I remember when PHP was becoming popular. It allowed for inroads to code from front end designers who hated coding in Flash at a time when academia-based Java people were running all the big websites. If you wanted to hack up and put up a website, you can do so in a few minutes with a LAMP stack where a Java stack needed some lessons in Java. Same is pretty much true today, but it's 10 lan…

> Tell me to code mindfuck and I will. I believe you referred to brainfuck, just for the record. > As I get older, I think I hate them all. There is some deep pessimism in the software world that I feel constructive . When engineers talk about how much they hate the tools even they don't have to use, I think it shows the care they have toward the profession.

It's the same reason people in any field put down things - they like to feel superior by putting down the tools that others use, thereby increasing their own relative stature.

Re: PHP Sucks, But It Doesn't Matter

#63

Post by bmj »

ErrantX wrote: post #49
cageface wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the wrong way to think about it. Just because people can hop on one leg across the finish line doesn't mean that's a smart way to run a race. Ask yourself this: would the Instagram team have been as successful had they chosen PHP? I think not. Javascript is different because we're stuck with it for historical reasons but there are so many better choices on the back end that there is absolutely no excuse to st…

Ask yourself this: would the Instagram team have been as successful had they chosen PHP? They absolutely would. Building an actual application is a hard problem; a lot harder than the kinks of individual programming languages. Whichever tools you choose it is never going to be an easy ride. Anyone who has written, deployed or maintained a large scale application of the sort listed there knows this. It's the step afte…

I think we're a bit spoiled these days. Five or ten years ago, we didn't have Ruby (or at least a mature RoR), Django, Clojure, or Scala (to name a few), so PHP was a pretty decent option for someone trying to get something out there efficiently. These days, there are lots of interesting platform choices (all with different barriers for entry), so many "serious" developers have moved in different directions.

Re: PHP Sucks, But It Doesn't Matter

#64

Post by cageface »

ErrantX wrote: post #59
cageface wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Building an actual application is a hard problem. It is. Which is why you can't afford to have the challenges of building something non-trivial compounded by the frustration of working in a broken language. If you're just slapping together another spaghetti CRUD app maybe you don't suffer enough to care. I wonder if people in other engineering disciplines defend broken practices so irrationally. I suspect they don't…

PHP has its frustrations. It's not outright broken. But my point was that all other programming languages suffer their own "broken" problems. I managed a team working in Ruby not long ago; they had no end of gripes and frustrations. The key point is that compared to the challenge of building a complex application, those "difficulties" are trivial. And once you are at that stage, anyway, you're so used to the way your…

Recognizing that all languages have their problems is one thing. Arguing that all languages are essentially equivalent in the larger sense is another.

Sorry I just don't buy it. Tools aren't the only factor but they do matter.

Re: PHP Sucks, But It Doesn't Matter

#65

Post by ryanwaggoner »

Joeboy wrote: post #51
ryannielsen wrote: post #28

Things that don't matter: - OS - Language - Compiler - Runtime - Editor - Testing process - Deployment process - Bug management systems The thing that does matter: - Building something successful that people want Frankly, I don't care what language you used to build it. I don't care what shoddy infrastructure supports it. I don't care what hacks you put into place to scale that infrastructure. You know why? Because y…

That's absolutely right. I've established that there's a market for digging trenches for subterranean cables, and my decision to use teaspoons instead of pneumatic drills and mechanical diggers has no bearing whatsoever on my venture's prospects.

That would be a very valid analogy if no other trenches had been dug with teaspoons, but a high percentage have, including some of the largest and most successful.

Re: PHP Sucks, But It Doesn't Matter

#66

Post by guelo »

ryannielsen wrote: post #28

Things that don't matter: - OS - Language - Compiler - Runtime - Editor - Testing process - Deployment process - Bug management systems The thing that does matter: - Building something successful that people want Frankly, I don't care what language you used to build it. I don't care what shoddy infrastructure supports it. I don't care what hacks you put into place to scale that infrastructure. You know why? Because y…

But when starting a project you still have to make all those decisions. So knowing that PHP sucks is useful information.

Re: PHP Sucks, But It Doesn't Matter

#67

Post by FuzzyDunlop »

It does matter when you have to work on an existing PHP project that makes throwing yourself off a bridge seem an attractive proposition.

Yeah, it's not entirely the language that is to blame - the language didn't design and code the project after all - but its own design makes it too easy to create stuff that will really punish more seasoned developers later on.

That it powers some popular products or websites isn't entirely relevant, unless we're saying that Wordpress, Wikipedia, Facebook, etc. are popular because they were written in PHP.

Re: PHP Sucks, But It Doesn't Matter

#68

Post by philjackson »

ryannielsen wrote: post #28

Things that don't matter: - OS - Language - Compiler - Runtime - Editor - Testing process - Deployment process - Bug management systems The thing that does matter: - Building something successful that people want Frankly, I don't care what language you used to build it. I don't care what shoddy infrastructure supports it. I don't care what hacks you put into place to scale that infrastructure. You know why? Because y…

Woe betide developers actually feeling good and having fun whilst developing this app. You won't attract skilled new developers with technical debt and a crusty old language.

Re: PHP Sucks, But It Doesn't Matter

#69

Post by LoneWolf »

After reading through the comments I have to leave my comment about PHP.

I have been developing in PHP, Java, and a little of C#, I also have done a few things with Python.

From my exprience it does not matter what language I'm using, it's just a matter of syntax and knowing the language.

My personal preference goes to PHP or Java, and while Python is nice I can't stand the whitespace thing, I like to be able to write my code without thinking about how it looks, only after its written I care about the look for later reading (in my case tell my IDE to make it pretty, by hand its boring but easy too).

While C# as a language is good for me, the msdn documentation sometimes seems rather lacking when compared to PHP or Java and in the case of Java the exceptions it thrown (btw if someone knows where there is a reference for the exceptions a method throws in C# please tell me, I can't find them in msdn).

Yes PHP has its frustrations and quirks, but it is possible to write well structured code for web applications and separating everything using MVC. Same applies to Java or C#, Python etc.

Don't like it? Stop caring about it.

Re: PHP Sucks, But It Doesn't Matter

#70

Post by mgkimsal »

foolinator wrote: post #39
polemic wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing the point. PHP works. A priori arguments from faults in the language don't explain its success. Replaying that old record doesn't add anything to What We Already Know. Also: I didn't say that Javascript is different - I'm talking about the curmudgeons in comp.lang.js who argue that the practical benefits of using a JS library are outweighed by their flaws. This is clearly dis-proven by their popularity…

I know why it's successful. I remember when PHP was becoming popular. It allowed for inroads to code from front end designers who hated coding in Flash at a time when academia-based Java people were running all the big websites. If you wanted to hack up and put up a website, you can do so in a few minutes with a LAMP stack where a Java stack needed some lessons in Java. Same is pretty much true today, but it's 10 lan…

"(core dumps - a common issue in PHP)"

Ummm.... I've been working with PHP for 16 years, and I could count the number of coredumps I've had in production on one hand (maybe 2). Early on, when compiling extensions by hand, I'd get some when I compiled something wrong, but that was always in test areas on dev machines.

If 'core dumps' were 'a common issue', I doubt it would be as widely used as it is now.

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