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Apollo astronaut Frank Borman has died

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Re: Apollo astronaut Frank Borman has died

#61

Post by somenameforme »

chihuahua wrote: post #33
alephnerd wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> next person walk on the moon. 2025-2026 if everything goes to plan at NASA The Chinese also announced that they will be attempting to build a lunar base with Russia, Pakistan, Azerbaijan, Venezuela, South Africa, UAE, and Belarus by 2035. I'm curious what JAXA, ESA, and ISRO are going to try with regards to human space flight. I know JAXA and ISRO work very closely with each other, but seem to be much more probe an…

Makes sense; if you want to build a lunar base, you gotta have Venezuela and Azerbaijan on your team, otherwise it's basically futile.

In living memory of most of us, China was just a deeply impoverished nation known for little more than exporting cheap unreliable crap. Any achievement they did make was framed as being stolen from somebody else. Yet now, their successes in space, industry, science, and technology are completely taken for granted. Funny how quickly things change! The status quo of the world is constantly shifting. Those nations which strive to advance, will. Those nations which rest on their laurels of achievements past, will gradually find themselves with little left to cling to beyond those laurels.

I think it's awesome to see previously neglected nations beginning to be able to take part in major space programs. They also come with unique benefits. Like somebody else mentioned, for one thing Venezuela is in a dream scenario for launches. Eastern exposure to the ocean and substantially closer to the equator than e.g. Florida. This means ships taking off from there are able to more optimally sort of 'sling shot' off of Earth's rotation - the Earth rotates Eastward, and fastest at the equator. Same reason that in Andy Weir's Artemis novel, Kenya ended up being a world leader in space. And there's no logical reason this wouldn't happen. Countries can be developed, but they can't be moved.

Re: Apollo astronaut Frank Borman has died

#63

Post by [deleted] »

alephnerd wrote: post #25
jebarker wrote: post #10

I think there are now only eight men still alive that flew to the moon and only four that walked on it. I hope there'll be some still alive to see the next person walk on the moon.

> next person walk on the moon. 2025-2026 if everything goes to plan at NASA The Chinese also announced that they will be attempting to build a lunar base with Russia, Pakistan, Azerbaijan, Venezuela, South Africa, UAE, and Belarus by 2035. I'm curious what JAXA, ESA, and ISRO are going to try with regards to human space flight. I know JAXA and ISRO work very closely with each other, but seem to be much more probe an…

[deleted]

Re: Apollo astronaut Frank Borman has died

#64

Post by dotnet00 »

alephnerd wrote: post #48
dotnet00 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2026 will likely be cutting it really close for boots on the Moon. Assuming the upcoming Starship test flight goes well, we might see a test of refueling operations in late 2024, 2 years is likely to be cutting it really close for operationalizing refueling and crew rating the HLS. Particularly on the paperwork front. I'd say that if everything goes perfectly from this point onwards, 2026 might see the uncrewed test…

> the Russian program being in steep decline Idk. The Russian program seems to be weaker at operationalizing in 2023 but still has a lot of IP from the USSR era. China is making massive strides but doesn't seem to have as deep IP experience yet. Imo I wouldn't oversell the Chinese and undersell the Russians. > JAXA and ISRO would most likely contribute with base components or related That tracks, and fits with their…

I think Russia has mostly lost the perks of its USSR legacy in space to time, and I would argue has even less current experience than China on making new systems. Most of the USSR stuff would've been like NASA's stuff from that period, extremely reliant on the experience and intuitions built up by the engineers of the time such that reusing the designs from that time now is almost as much work as just designing a new thing from scratch. Russia hasn't invested in propagating that knowledge to younger generations, and the people from that time are quickly aging out of the workforce. So the only institutional knowledge they really have left at this point would be Soyuz, which, while a workhorse, is certainly not enough on its own to cover the systems needed on a space station/base of any sort.

JAXA, ESA are considered partners on the Artemis program (at least based on Wikipedia, there does not seem to be an explicit list of partners on NASA's site), they're training astronauts to eventually be sent to the Moon in a similar arrangement as with the ISS. JAXA and ESA (along with the Canadian Space Agency) are also contributing various key components for the Gateway space station. Plus, the ESA is an important player with the Orion capsule which Congress-critters seem committed to forcing to be the center of the program regardless of technical and financial sense.

As for ISRO, I think I mixed things up a little. I think I had heard talk about the potential for an arrangement to fly a vyomanaut to the ISS on Dragon, assumed that it was about the agreement having been made and then mixed it up with Artemis. Turns out none of that was real, there does not appear to be any talk of sending an vyomanaut to the ISS.

Re: Apollo astronaut Frank Borman has died

#65

Post by p1mrx »

77pt77 wrote: post #54
Kon-Peki wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Borman and his crewmates never quite got the kudos they deserved. It’s worse than that. Indiana named a horrible stretch of perpetually under construction interstate after him.

Does it go near Gary?

yes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_94_in_Indiana

Re: Apollo astronaut Frank Borman has died

#66

Post by idlewords »

alephnerd wrote: post #25
jebarker wrote: post #10

I think there are now only eight men still alive that flew to the moon and only four that walked on it. I hope there'll be some still alive to see the next person walk on the moon.

> next person walk on the moon. 2025-2026 if everything goes to plan at NASA The Chinese also announced that they will be attempting to build a lunar base with Russia, Pakistan, Azerbaijan, Venezuela, South Africa, UAE, and Belarus by 2035. I'm curious what JAXA, ESA, and ISRO are going to try with regards to human space flight. I know JAXA and ISRO work very closely with each other, but seem to be much more probe an…

Part of that NASA plan depends on people figuring out how to put Starship into orbit, how to refuel it in orbit, and then how to safely land it on its tail on the moon. These are three enormous technical challenges that I can't imagine being solved by 2026, even if all the dysfunctions at NASA proper were to disappear tomorrow.

Re: Apollo astronaut Frank Borman has died

#67

Post by idlewords »

somenameforme wrote: post #61
chihuahua wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Makes sense; if you want to build a lunar base, you gotta have Venezuela and Azerbaijan on your team, otherwise it's basically futile.

In living memory of most of us, China was just a deeply impoverished nation known for little more than exporting cheap unreliable crap. Any achievement they did make was framed as being stolen from somebody else. Yet now, their successes in space, industry, science, and technology are completely taken for granted. Funny how quickly things change! The status quo of the world is constantly shifting. Those nations which…

Well said. And one further advantage of Venezuela is that crowds of people looting the rocket on the pad will greatly reduce the launch weight.

Re: Apollo astronaut Frank Borman has died

#68

Post by Animats »

ethbr1 wrote: post #29
scj wrote: post #18

During the Apollo 1 investigation, he said something that suck with me when thinking of begrudging users who are willing to look past faults for utility: "There's no question that it was a coffin, and I'd have flown it gladly."

Explains the preference for test pilots -- when abnormal is normal, you're in rarified company. Amazing when "the office" might kill you.

At the time, the career casualty rate for fighter pilots was one in five. Just from flying around, without any enemy.

Re: Apollo astronaut Frank Borman has died

#69

Post by szundi »

idlewords wrote: post #66
alephnerd wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> next person walk on the moon. 2025-2026 if everything goes to plan at NASA The Chinese also announced that they will be attempting to build a lunar base with Russia, Pakistan, Azerbaijan, Venezuela, South Africa, UAE, and Belarus by 2035. I'm curious what JAXA, ESA, and ISRO are going to try with regards to human space flight. I know JAXA and ISRO work very closely with each other, but seem to be much more probe an…

Part of that NASA plan depends on people figuring out how to put Starship into orbit, how to refuel it in orbit, and then how to safely land it on its tail on the moon. These are three enormous technical challenges that I can't imagine being solved by 2026, even if all the dysfunctions at NASA proper were to disappear tomorrow.

Maybe one could just decide that concrete blocks and debris can be collected any time int the future from a field area and just allow it to launch
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