Why haven't we cured cancer yet?
131–140 of 167 posts
Re: Why haven't we cured cancer yet?
#132Earlier quoted context omitted.
just how difficult it is to judge effectiveness of treatments and preventions in even extremely controlled studies. Translation: "just how difficult it is to be absolutely absolutely absolutely * 10^7 sure we're not selling quack medicine." The treatment of Steveoma is effective if Steve gets better. If not, it isn't. The sample size is 1 by definition. Obviously, if Steve gets better and he's taking 30 drugs, no one…
I understand where your ideas come from, I wish they were true. But sadly they are misinformed on many levels, and the root of the problem is you are playing a statistical game where reality will win. - There are not enough Billionaires to meet your needs, statistically you'll need quite a few to find any decent cures. Especially with 30 teams in play on each case; figuring out "what worked" is a bad numbers game in…
This is exactly the problem: statistics. In a problem where every case is unique, any use of statistics is an abuse of statistics.
The roots of Western medicine are arguably pre-scientific, and certainly pre-statistical. We knew and could do a lot of things before we knew what a p-value was.
If what "advancing knowledge" means to you is "accumulating p-values so I can publish papers," this kind of experiment can produce no information whatsoever.
If what "advancing knowledge" means to you is "we think we know what's going on and we think we can do it better next time," the answer is very different. Of course this is what most people, indeed most industries, mean by "learning." We don't have to know absolutely that we know - we don't have that luxury. Instead we need to get things done.
Modern scientific medicine is supposed - no, required (with the increasingly narrow exception of surgery) - to learn only in the first way. Guess what? It doesn't seem to be learning much. Or at least, much of any use. Maybe medicine isn't as much like physics as we'd thought.
it is it is for the case of "oh shit, I just killed a million people because we didn't investigate long term effects".
And you're lecturing me about Godwin's law?
For what it's worth, long-term effects of OTC non-cancer drugs aren't investigated for shit. I'm permanently achlorhydric from permanently solving my GERD with daily omeprazole. As recommended by actual doctors. What the hell is the effect of taking omeprazole for a decade? Who the hell knows?
And that is where your theory really fails; because you are trading an unknown collateral now, for an unknown collateral in the future.
Did you ever read Asimov's Foundation? Remember the bits set on Trantor? Your whole mindset is straight out of Trantor, I fear - and it's certainly not exclusive to you.
Re: Why haven't we cured cancer yet?
#133Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm going to be a heretic and argue that the problem with cancer research is institutional, not biological. The biological problem is clearly very hard, but the institutional problem is impossible. You might or might not be familiar with the term "OODA loop," originally developed by fighter pilots: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop If the war on cancer was a dogfight, you'd need an order from the President every…
[There's a TL/DR at the bottom] Everyone's cancer is its own disease (if not several), so the researchers are fighting one disease (or several), instead of an infinite family of diseases. They are not trying to cure pancreatic cancer - they are trying to cure Steveoma. You're absolutely right that this is the mentality that future treatments need to take. In terms of treatment response, a liver tumour could have far…
I didn't see this message the first time. Truly remarkable comment. Am I trolling?
I'll answer with a text from 1863, by the English historian James Anthony Froude:
In the ordinary branches of human knowledge or enquiry the judicious questioning of received opinions has been regarded as the sign of scientific vitality, the principle of scientific advancement, the very source and root of healthy progress and growth. If medicine had been regulated three hundred years ago by Act of Parliament; if there had been Thirty-nine Articles of Physic, and every licensed practitioner had been compelled, under pains and penalties, to compound his drugs by the prescriptions of Henry the Eighth's physician, Doctor Butts, it is easy to conjecture in what state of health the people of this country would at present be found.
Constitutions have changed with habits of life, and the treatment of disorders has changed to meet the new conditions. New diseases have shown themselves of which Doctor Butts had no cognizance; new continents have given us plants with medicinal virtues previously unknown; new sciences, and even the mere increase of recorded experience, have added a thousand remedies to those known to the age of the Tudors.
If the College of Physicians had been organised into a board of orthodoxy, and every novelty of treatment had been regarded as a crime against society, which a law had been established to punish, the hundreds who die annually from preventible causes would have been thousands and tens of thousands.
I suppose it's trolling to remark that Doctor Butts has made quite a comeback. Source: http://books.google.com/books?id=Xc0YHClRwA4C.
Re: Why haven't we cured cancer yet?
#134Earlier quoted context omitted.
just how difficult it is to judge effectiveness of treatments and preventions in even extremely controlled studies. Translation: "just how difficult it is to be absolutely absolutely absolutely * 10^7 sure we're not selling quack medicine." The treatment of Steveoma is effective if Steve gets better. If not, it isn't. The sample size is 1 by definition. Obviously, if Steve gets better and he's taking 30 drugs, no one…
>The treatment of Steveoma is effective if Steve gets better. If not, it isn't. The sample size is 1 by definition. Well, it's effective if Steve gets better than he would have if he hadn't taken it. That's a rather important distinction, and it's real hard to tell the difference with low sample sizes.
See above for comments on statistics.
Re: Why haven't we cured cancer yet?
#135Earlier quoted context omitted.
>The treatment of Steveoma is effective if Steve gets better. If not, it isn't. The sample size is 1 by definition. Well, it's effective if Steve gets better than he would have if he hadn't taken it. That's a rather important distinction, and it's real hard to tell the difference with low sample sizes.
Spontaneous remission, while it happens, is not a significant confounding factor in pancreatic cancer. See above for comments on statistics.
Basically - any single chaotic factor outside the narrowly defined boundaries you have mentioned, will bork your entire system.
While this means that we've reached a similar state to where we are today, the current state is advantageous because it is systematic from the ground up.
Re: Why haven't we cured cancer yet?
#136Re: Why haven't we cured cancer yet?
#137Earlier quoted context omitted.
I understand where your ideas come from, I wish they were true. But sadly they are misinformed on many levels, and the root of the problem is you are playing a statistical game where reality will win. - There are not enough Billionaires to meet your needs, statistically you'll need quite a few to find any decent cures. Especially with 30 teams in play on each case; figuring out "what worked" is a bad numbers game in…
Statistically you'll need quite a few This is exactly the problem: statistics. In a problem where every case is unique, any use of statistics is an abuse of statistics. The roots of Western medicine are arguably pre-scientific, and certainly pre-statistical. We knew and could do a lot of things before we knew what a p-value was. If what "advancing knowledge" means to you is "accumulating p-values so I can publish pap…
Omeprazole has been about for nearly quarter of a century; and is fairly well understood - hell I can walk down to my local drug store and pick up a load from the shelves.
What you are describing, IMO, is either one of two things:
- a systemic failure in healthcare provision (not drug development)
- or a valid trade off between cure and side-effect
If what "advancing knowledge" means to you is "we think we know what's going on and we think we can do it better next time,"
The problem here is that you're going to kill a larger number of people in-trial due to mistakes or missteps. We know this because that is what early medicine did. Whether this is more than those who would die without aggressive research is something of a moot argument. Arguing the numbers is largely pointless because it's impossible to predict what will happen (that, after all, is the point).
Now; I see your argument that this is a valid tradeoff. Indeed, I think we should take more risks than we do. But not quite to the extent you are arguing.
Re: Why haven't we cured cancer yet?
#138Earlier quoted context omitted.
I understand where your ideas come from, I wish they were true. But sadly they are misinformed on many levels, and the root of the problem is you are playing a statistical game where reality will win. - There are not enough Billionaires to meet your needs, statistically you'll need quite a few to find any decent cures. Especially with 30 teams in play on each case; figuring out "what worked" is a bad numbers game in…
I am going to echo Jach comments a bit. Millions of people are dying from cancer, and will die at the pace of current research. The argument is that if you turn up the pace, you will kill more people but in the longer term you may save a lot more. Instead of decades from idea to human trial you push into a few years.
You can't predict these numbers though; which is my point. Neither is a very useful argument.
There are a lot of improvements that could take place; the moving of more drug research from the US to other countries, for example (that's probably a controversial opinion in itself).
Re: Why haven't we cured cancer yet?
#139Earlier quoted context omitted.
Statistically you'll need quite a few This is exactly the problem: statistics. In a problem where every case is unique, any use of statistics is an abuse of statistics. The roots of Western medicine are arguably pre-scientific, and certainly pre-statistical. We knew and could do a lot of things before we knew what a p-value was. If what "advancing knowledge" means to you is "accumulating p-values so I can publish pap…
For what it's worth, long-term effects of OTC non-cancer drugs aren't investigated for shit. I'm permanently achlorhydric from permanently solving my GERD with daily omeprazole. As recommended by actual doctors. What the hell is the effect of taking omeprazole for a decade? Who the hell knows? Omeprazole has been about for nearly quarter of a century; and is fairly well understood - hell I can walk down to my local d…
You say this like it follows.
I can too. I can read the label as well, which says to take it for no more than 28 days "without the advice of a doctor." Presumably this is the period for which it's been studied.
The idea of doing a double-blind study of the various systemic effects of a decade of induced achlorhydria is... absurd. How can you say it's understood? It's not understood, at all, either by my standards or yours.
So, without perfect information - I decide. I don't like the fact that all my ancestors for 100 million years had HCl in their guts, and I don't. I do like the fact that I'm not in the process of getting Barrett's esophagus and my abdomen doesn't hurt all the time.
Weighing risks and deciding without perfect information: fact of life. Trying to outlaw this process: like legislating that pi equals 3. Classic failure mode of the utopian 20th century.
Re: Why haven't we cured cancer yet?
#140People looking for a general cure lose sight of the amazing accomplishments already achieved.