Live data from Hacker News

Sad clown paradox

en.wikipedia.org

81–90 of 130 posts

Re: Sad clown paradox

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might want to check the news about Russel Brand. Probably not the best person to link to.

A world where we let people's failings and faults dominate their success and virtues is a world inherently destined for incredible mediocrity and the creation of only tepid works.

A world where we ignore "failings and faults" like being a serial rapist so long as said rapist creates profitable works is no better.

Re: Sad clown paradox

#82

The symbol of happy/sad drama masks (Thalia and Melpomene) is an ancient reference to this same dynamic. Was prompted to look up the definition of the word "pathetic," recently, and it means evocativeness of emotion, but typically sympathy or pity instead of laughter. Being comical and pathetic seem like the same thing, we just don't understand the word well because it's an epithet in pop culture that nobody consider…

This immediately brought the Dolly Parton song Jolene into my head. First time I heard it I was struck with how pathetic it was. It was very jarring hearing a superstar like Dolly singing from such a position of inferiority. But the song is incredible. You feel her feelings of inadequacy so deeply. It's a masterful example of this mechanic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixrje2rXLMA

Blues itself as a genre is similar. A lot of what became known as alternative music was defined by a related sense of pathos, where a lot of it was about indulging and wallowing. Pop music is like an opposite of comedy because comedy is about the unexpected, where pop is about simple satisfaction. When we say "pathetic," it's usually a shorthand for disgust, but a lot of beauty in the world is evocatively pathetic by virtue of its fragility or temporariness. In a more generalized sense, comedy and humour are a pathetic way of relating, and it's not a criticism so much as a way of emphasizing we should develop a better understanding of pathos, as forgiving or having compassion for it by recognizing it for what it is seems like it could relieve a lot of suffering.

Re: Sad clown paradox

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might want to check the news about Russel Brand. Probably not the best person to link to.

What, that he was a sex addict for much of his career and made some regrettable choices during that time? I'm aware. He's mentioned it once or twice.

He's been accused of rape and sexual assault by multiple women.

Re: Sad clown paradox

#84
post #57

I did a clowning masterclass in France a few months ago. (That was a whole, wild experience that I’ll be haunted by for years). While I was there I realised I’ve been operating under a certain kind of dumb philosophy my whole life without realising it. The philosophy is something like this: “I believe if I’m “good” enough, nobody will reject me for being “bad” and people will like me.” And fill in whatever you want f…

> We don’t like people who are perfect. We like people for their flaws.

Entirely this. It even applies to physical beauty. People who appear physically flawless are generally perceived as less beautiful than ones that don't.

Re: Sad clown paradox

#85
post #38
post #37

So, reading the comments.. there seem to be an internal and an external explanations to the paradox. Internal explanations are that people who want to do comedy tend to be somehow messed up somehow. External explanations are that the world itself is messed up, and if you want to do comedy, you have to understand it, and that makes you sad. I think to determine which one is true, we should look at people curious about…

Comedians typically were in sad environments and coped by making people (and themselves) laugh. But laughter is transitory. And jokes grow stale. So it’s chasing a high. A type of hedonic treadmill.

> Comedians typically were in sad environments and coped by making people (and themselves) laugh.

According to Richard Belzer's wikipedia page, he "declared that his comedy career began when trying to make her laugh to distract her from abusing him and his brother". Which is may be an extreme case, but illustrative of what drives some people to comedy.

Re: Sad clown paradox

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What, that he was a sex addict for much of his career and made some regrettable choices during that time? I'm aware. He's mentioned it once or twice.

He's been accused of rape and sexual assault by multiple women.

He's still a subject matter expert when it comes to comedy, though.

Re: Sad clown paradox

#87
post #57

I did a clowning masterclass in France a few months ago. (That was a whole, wild experience that I’ll be haunted by for years). While I was there I realised I’ve been operating under a certain kind of dumb philosophy my whole life without realising it. The philosophy is something like this: “I believe if I’m “good” enough, nobody will reject me for being “bad” and people will like me.” And fill in whatever you want f…

That is beautifully said. I too have had to learn in my life with a not entirely neurotypical brain that what connects people in everyday life is just that flawed humanness, and one's attitude towards it in oneself. There is admiration and dislike and other, more generic feelings towards others, but true connection comes from those little points of cognition and relating. Maybe that insight comes more naturally to many, but some of us had to think about this a bit more than others.

Re: Sad clown paradox

#88
post #30

Lol, now you can't even be funny in peace... If you're too funny, you might be diagnosed as depressed... smh. Tough crowd. :p

The way I understand it is that humor is a defense mechanism. And it's notable that the people who get drawn to or perfect their humor until it becomes an art or profession might have a higher incidence of depression or other disorders. Perhaps because they found humor earlier and/or used it more during childhood.

Re: Sad clown paradox

#89
post #57

I did a clowning masterclass in France a few months ago. (That was a whole, wild experience that I’ll be haunted by for years). While I was there I realised I’ve been operating under a certain kind of dumb philosophy my whole life without realising it. The philosophy is something like this: “I believe if I’m “good” enough, nobody will reject me for being “bad” and people will like me.” And fill in whatever you want f…

I think you're on the right track, but it's more complicated than that. It's not just success/failure, it's success/failure relative to one's perceived innate abilities. Take this example:

https://old.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/17ql19y/how_to_work_...

The fact that the audience member wearing the cargo pants clearly had a learning disability changed everything. The source of the comedy switched from teasing someone about poor fashion choices to being in the presence of a zen master who wore whatever the fuck he wanted. (It was actually a brilliant response on the part of the performer.)

This is almost universal. We celebrate (say) people confined to wheelchairs playing basketball, but only if they have no choice but to use a wheelchair. Able-bodied people playing wheelchair basketball would be a grotesque farce. (But it's not completely universal. The DAAA games [1], for example, are not nearly as widely known as (say) the special olympics [2].)

[1] http://www.daaa.org/

[2] https://www.specialolympics.org/

Re: Sad clown paradox

#90

The symbol of happy/sad drama masks (Thalia and Melpomene) is an ancient reference to this same dynamic. Was prompted to look up the definition of the word "pathetic," recently, and it means evocativeness of emotion, but typically sympathy or pity instead of laughter. Being comical and pathetic seem like the same thing, we just don't understand the word well because it's an epithet in pop culture that nobody consider…

This immediately brought the Dolly Parton song Jolene into my head. First time I heard it I was struck with how pathetic it was. It was very jarring hearing a superstar like Dolly singing from such a position of inferiority. But the song is incredible. You feel her feelings of inadequacy so deeply. It's a masterful example of this mechanic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixrje2rXLMA

It's a great song. Hearing it at 33 rpm [0] is a different experience still: it's almost more plaintive, more haunting. Worth a listen IMO.

0: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doz1QJ7LwjA

Post reply on HN