Where is the casual programming?
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Where is the casual programming?
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Re: Where is the casual programming?
#2>feels too much like piecing together jigsaw puzzles where you first have to know which pieces actually exist.
Well... that describes programming in many ways. That's not to say that shell scripting is the perfect casual programming environment - in fact, it certainly isn't! - but that anyone dabbling in things will certainly come to feel that problem. When I hacked in BASIC thirty years ago, then moved to Pascal, and then to C, that's largely how I felt the whole time.
Re: Where is the casual programming?
#3As a direct answer to the question and based on the problems the author raises, OS X's "Automator" is just that. It's casual yet still pretty powerful automation/programming. It loads fast, it has a visual IDE of sorts, and it can do a lot of jobs you'd otherwise use shell scripts for.
Re: Where is the casual programming?
#4Casual programming happens in Excel every day.
Re: Where is the casual programming?
#5As a direct answer to the question and based on the problems the author raises, OS X's "Automator" is just that. It's casual yet still pretty powerful automation/programming. It loads fast, it has a visual IDE of sorts, and it can do a lot of jobs you'd otherwise use shell scripts for.
(author here) I'm not a Mac user, but took a look at Automator now. It seems a big step in that direction. Still, I'm not sure it makes the casual programming problem solved. Maybe I misrepresented the problem; let me give some more examples on casual programs that could be made easier...
* Quickly testing small game ideas or demos (programming as self-expression).
* Solving an ACM problem or one of those programming job puzzles without too much setup.
* Writing the blog tagger example in the blog post, and other "do my web tasks for me" code.
I think a good casual IDE could be written for various types of needs, not just automating the OS or Apps..which are certainly an important part of the problem.
Re: Where is the casual programming?
#6There is one statically typed language with a nice toolchain that allows interactive (REPL) programming and scripting: F#.
Try the steps here[1]. They're old, but still work, and work pretty well. It's fast; there's no need to create a project or solution. You can type your code all you want, use IntelliSense and all that, then select and Alt-Enter to execute it.
If you don't want to load VS, you can just run "fsi" for the interactive shell alone. You'll lose the full IntelliSense and colour highlighting, but you still get tab-completion. Plus, F#'s syntax is much lighter than C# or Java, so it's nicer for quick scripts.
Quite frankly, for any level of programming, I find having a REPL available is such a massive productivity boost. I shouldn't have to give up static type checking and a slick IDE to get it.
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/jomo_fisher/archive/2008/08/25/f-scr...
Re: Where is the casual programming?
#7As a direct answer to the question and based on the problems the author raises, OS X's "Automator" is just that. It's casual yet still pretty powerful automation/programming. It loads fast, it has a visual IDE of sorts, and it can do a lot of jobs you'd otherwise use shell scripts for.
(author here) I'm not a Mac user, but took a look at Automator now. It seems a big step in that direction. Still, I'm not sure it makes the casual programming problem solved. Maybe I misrepresented the problem; let me give some more examples on casual programs that could be made easier... * Quickly testing small game ideas or demos (programming as self-expression). * Solving an ACM problem or one of those programming…
Yeah, Automator is essentially a sort of group of visual DSLs for some very defined domains. Your examples here are definitely more in the realm of general programming languages.
It's definitely not as easy as the environment you speculate, but Xcode and iOS development have been making big inroads lately, even with total beginners. Certainly, it could be made a lot easier, but efforts to do this in the past have tended to fall flat as people think that the skills they learn won't be useful in "real" environments later on.. which turns it into quite the chicken and egg problem :-)
I wonder, however, if JavaScript and Web oriented development environments will ultimately fill the gap you're identifying. The browser is an ideal environment for the tasks you outline, and JavaScript is a fine 'base' language for DSLs to fall on top of while still giving access to the full language.
Re: Where is the casual programming?
#8with ipython you do get some of that auto completion for python. It'll autocomplete the module name for you, but you do have to figure out you want that module first, so you'd need to google and realize you want shutil for dealing with files. I use it a lot when I'm interacting with new APIs or even just for writing the code as I go.
In [1]: import sh
sha shelve shlex shutil
In [1]: import shutil
In [2]: shutil.
...
shutil.copy shutil.errno shutil.move
In [2]: help(shutil.move)
Re: Where is the casual programming?
#9I started programming with PHP, and I was easily able to apply all that knowledge of (rather basic) web-dev to the CLI. If I need a quick script my first instinct (besides bash) would be to fire up TextMate and write some PHP. As a beginner, whenever I needed to do something Google always had the right answer (e.g. "php check if string contains string"). This helped because I never felt like I was reading tons of documentation, and always gave me a quick answer. Once you use the same function a few times you generally remember it.
Re: Where is the casual programming?
#10As a direct answer to the question and based on the problems the author raises, OS X's "Automator" is just that. It's casual yet still pretty powerful automation/programming. It loads fast, it has a visual IDE of sorts, and it can do a lot of jobs you'd otherwise use shell scripts for.
(author here) I'm not a Mac user, but took a look at Automator now. It seems a big step in that direction. Still, I'm not sure it makes the casual programming problem solved. Maybe I misrepresented the problem; let me give some more examples on casual programs that could be made easier... * Quickly testing small game ideas or demos (programming as self-expression). * Solving an ACM problem or one of those programming…
It sounds like you might be looking for something more like squeak: http://www.squeak.org/