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Google argues iMessage should be regulated by the EU's Digital Markets Act

arstechnica.com

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Re: Google argues iMessage should be regulated by the EU's Digital Markets Act

#41

Post by ericmay »

sigmar wrote: post #36
repelsteeltje wrote: post #2

Sigh. It was to be expected that regulation intended to shield users from big tech harm is twisted to instead have one giant attack another.

If Apple stopped using their iMessage-noninteroperability to dissuade consumers (via network effects, degraded quality of images, etc) from trying other mobile OS platforms , wouldn't that also help any third party that wanted to challenge Apple and Google's dominance?

Probably not. It’s better to think of this as Google trying to go after Apple to the sole benefit of Google than it is to think of this as “if Google wins this it will create lots of third party challengers”.

Network effects also aren’t really all that bad. Would you want 15 apps that you have to rotate through to communicate to different people with, all with different features and capabilities? Probably not. You’d build some protocol on top to make that easier. But then someone says hey you need to open up your protocol and support my protocol and on and on we go.

The crux of this story and most similar stories is that Apple went and made the best product and it’s so good that others can’t compete with it. If the opposite were true we’d just have people battling it out like we used to with video game consoles. Instead we have gigantic multi-hundred billion $ companies attacking Apple’s products and services with big government tools.

Re: Google argues iMessage should be regulated by the EU's Digital Markets Act

#42

Post by kevingadd »

funnybeam wrote: post #39
foota wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this is an accurate take. The DMA is about businesses and their relationships with consumers, so any regulation has to be targeted to that. The argument is that Apple not allowing businesses to use a protocol on par with iMessage is the issue here.

“ businesses and their relationships with consumers” Sounds like spam to me

You realize there are actual legitimate uses of SMS and people choose to use it, right?

Re: Google argues iMessage should be regulated by the EU's Digital Markets Act

#43

Post by justsomehnguy »

SirMaster wrote: post #24
kwanbix wrote: post #7

I really don't get what is it that people like so much about iMessage that they use it instead of WhatsApp or even Telegram or Signal. I really don't get it. Can anyone explain what is it that is so good that you end up using a solution that 40% in the USA and 60% in the rest of the world cannot use?

Because if I put someone's phone number into my Messages app, 100% of people will receive my messages with no issue. To decide to use WhatsApp or Signal or Telegram etc I would have to find out if they even have that service/app set up or not. And they have to have the app installed and signed in etc. With iMessage/SMS there is no setup, no sign-in, no approval process or anything.

Take Apple fanboying out of your mind.

This is exactly how it happens, you just add someone's phone number to your address book and... and it works? All those services rely on the phone numbers to discover if you can message to the other party. You literally see if the addressee can be called/sent message through WhatsApp.

Sure, it's not in your Messages app, but that's because Apple doesn't allow you to see any messaging platforms there except theirs?

Re: Google argues iMessage should be regulated by the EU's Digital Markets Act

#44

Post by kelnos »

mcfedr wrote: post #21
nerdjon wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US we used text messages for years so just sticking with that makes sense. I guess most of us just never really saw a reason to move to anything else. Why would I when I have been communicating with everyone through my phone number for 15ish years? I have honestly been curious why the rest of the world doesn't do this? Was SMS not used as much?

It was, but was long charged per message, so things like WhatsApp were quickly appealing, also for group chat, that SMS never did

The interesting thing is that this was the case in the US as well (and, even worse: we continued with our strange custom of charging both for sending and receiving a message). I don't recall when carriers here started rolling out unlimited texting plans at prices that made it a no-brainer for most people. Maybe that was earlier here than elsewhere, which drove people elsewhere to find alternatives, but made it not a big deal to stick with SMS here.

(I dated someone for a while who had this very old grandfathered phone plan that she liked, which didn't include unlimited SMS. This was in 2016-2018; at the time she was the only person I used Whatsapp to text with.)

Re: Google argues iMessage should be regulated by the EU's Digital Markets Act

#46

Post by nerdjon »

kelnos wrote: post #35
nerdjon wrote: post #16

I do have some slightly concerns about iMessage being opened up and no longer linked to Apple products for a spam standpoint. But I get plenty of SMS spam so I guess it's really not much of a difference. However kinda related I am curious about RCS. I tried looking this up but I can't find much concrete information on it. Is it actually universally E2E or only some? I find some reddit posts implying it's some. Do all…

> Is it actually universally E2E or only some? I find some reddit posts implying it's some. The E2EE on RCS is an extension to the protocol developed by Google. I don't know who has implemented it other than Google. So if a user is on a carrier that does their own RCS impl (many carriers piggyback off of Google's so they don't have to deal with it), they may not have E2EE. > Do all RCS messages go through Google's se…

Interesting, assuming this is all correct (I tried to look around and the information on this seems to be purposefully vague from a marketing standpoint for RCS.).

I am perfectly fine with Apple not rushing to implement RCS. It may be a business decision for their part but any chance that the messages information will go through Google's servers is a full no go for me and is not a valid alternative in my opinion.

Even if it is encrypted (which seems to not be guaranteed anyways), it still gives Google data I don't care for them to have.

Re: Google argues iMessage should be regulated by the EU's Digital Markets Act

#47

Post by nerdjon »

marcod wrote: post #28
nerdjon wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't read the article but going on what you said... that's interesting. Then I really don't understand why did the EU just not stick with SMS (and iMessage). Like what was the value of going with a new app. I was just using this same number with SMS on dumb phones... why would I switch?

SMS were expensive in Europe.

Interesting, did you not have unlimited texting?

I feel like unlimited texting was standard here since 2007 at least.

Re: Google argues iMessage should be regulated by the EU's Digital Markets Act

#48

Post by jauntywundrkind »

timmg wrote: post #3

I find it interesting how these big (near?) monopolies are fighting each other through the anti-trust system. Even as it seems the anti-trust system isn't working well on its own. I really don't know what the answer to all these related questions are (App stores and App store fees and payment systems). But it does seem to me that most of these biggest companies should be tamped down in some way. Not sure I know what…

Adversarial Interoperability, such as here, seems like the right move to me.

AT&T was doing the same shit: you have to use only manufacturer provided equipment, you have to communicate like we want you to. The online world has yet to have a Carterphone moment, where users are freed from the mothership's shackles.

Re: Google argues iMessage should be regulated by the EU's Digital Markets Act

#49

Post by nywles »

timmg wrote: post #3

I find it interesting how these big (near?) monopolies are fighting each other through the anti-trust system. Even as it seems the anti-trust system isn't working well on its own. I really don't know what the answer to all these related questions are (App stores and App store fees and payment systems). But it does seem to me that most of these biggest companies should be tamped down in some way. Not sure I know what…

How about mandating that a business should be able to offer personal customer care to everyone using their products? These companies can only grow this profitable because they don't have to support their users.

Re: Google argues iMessage should be regulated by the EU's Digital Markets Act

#50

Post by kelnos »

mattmanser wrote: post #18
nerdjon wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US we used text messages for years so just sticking with that makes sense. I guess most of us just never really saw a reason to move to anything else. Why would I when I have been communicating with everyone through my phone number for 15ish years? I have honestly been curious why the rest of the world doesn't do this? Was SMS not used as much?

You were actually late to text messages, not early. The US still had huge pager numbers when consumers in the EU was all in on text messages. For example this article discusses low SMS usage in the US from 2000: https://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/07/technology/us-is-lagging-... Just like you were late to dropping cheques vs chip and pin, the US has been a laggard in consumer adoption of some technologies. Might be somet…

That doesn't really make sense to me. If we were lagging in SMS usage, it was almost certainly because of one or two factors (I can't read the article you linked, so not sure if this is in there):

1. SMSes were fairly expensive, and we had to pay per-message both to send and receive them.

2. Most people I knew (I was in college at the time) didn't even have cell phones (due to cost?). My dad even worked for Verizon, and he and my mom got them fairly late. I remember going on a trip to NYC in the summer of 2000, and my mom lent me her cell phone for emergencies. I didn't get my own cell phone until 2002.

I don't think I knew anyone with a pager at that point. My dad used to carry one for on-call notifications for his job in the 80s & 90s, but by 2000 he had the cell phone. The joke in my circles at that point was that pagers were for drug dealers. I know there was still heavy (non-drug-dealer) pager use in the US back then, though.

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