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Oh my poor business logic

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91–100 of 154 posts

Re: Oh my poor business logic

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, being the middle man is kinda the manager job. The situation you describe happens when the manager does a poor job and is both submissive to the business requests and unable to comprehend technical issues. Ideally having a competent person acting as the middle man for most daily operations is desirable though

This is it. I have had a few really good managers in my career. They were game changers. When they came to me, they’d really done their homework and thought about the problem, or they hadn’t done it at all and were handing it off to me and giving me the contacts and support I needed to do my own research and own a thing entirely myself. Outside of those managers, managers have been worse than useless. They’ve been an…

[deleted]

Re: Oh my poor business logic

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, being the middle man is kinda the manager job. The situation you describe happens when the manager does a poor job and is both submissive to the business requests and unable to comprehend technical issues. Ideally having a competent person acting as the middle man for most daily operations is desirable though

This is it. I have had a few really good managers in my career. They were game changers. When they came to me, they’d really done their homework and thought about the problem, or they hadn’t done it at all and were handing it off to me and giving me the contacts and support I needed to do my own research and own a thing entirely myself. Outside of those managers, managers have been worse than useless. They’ve been an…

In a lot of organisations the business side isn't necessarily incentivised to talk to tech, which causes a lot of issues. In good places, it's different and the development cycles work really well with an engaged business side. You still might want some manager in there to manage demands, conflicts, resources, etc.

Re: Oh my poor business logic

#93
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... and this is when the development company (architect, technical director, ...) decides to extend the "data" models to the point where you've invented a programming language in XML. A programming language too advanced to use even for the programmers that invented it, let alone the "no code" people that it was intended for. A programming language with all of the complexities and none of the tooling that you would ex…

But isn't that something of the past? I am mostly working with systems that handle the bulk of the problem, providing process, data model, etc. And extensions are done via a specific programming language, ABAP for SAP, APAX for Salesforce, but in the end, it all ends up to be like any other software development projects, with compile time checks, etc.

> But isn't that something of the past?

I most certainly hope so. But I've been involved in extending a system as I described as recently as a few years back. Everything was supposed to be configurable (by no-code customers) and XML was the language of choice, so the XML was... complicated.

Re: Oh my poor business logic

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s humorous to see your company’s seemingly-wise desire to do Agile properly shadowed by the classic attitude of “Contractors? The people we pay to do a job same as FTE? Fuck ‘em!”

Contractors != Consultants

They said that they and their team were contractors and thus continued to run inefficiently

Re: Oh my poor business logic

#95

>> There must be a middle ground where developers can focus on the core business logic that yields the most value without incurring technical debt and making the development process a nightmare. I don’t have an answer for that, nor have I worked at a company that found the perfect balance. Plus, I’m not a technical lead, manager, or business owner. So if you are one of them, I’d love to hear how you or your organizat…

I remember reading an article (linked from here, I believe), written by a former PornHub developer.

He talked about how the whole thing relies on "boring" tech, like PHP.

Probably second only to Google, for hits per second. Uptime, robustness, and ease of maintenance were a really big deal. Very mercenary, and very practical.

Re: Oh my poor business logic

#96
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The more organisational layers you have between you and the customers - architects, business analysts, and the like - the more disconnected your work will be from the business value. In every company I have worked for in the last 10 years, the layer in between business experts and software engineers has been always: the manager (either product manager or eng. manager). It's a bottleneck. The flow usually goes like…

Well, being the middle man is kinda the manager job. The situation you describe happens when the manager does a poor job and is both submissive to the business requests and unable to comprehend technical issues. Ideally having a competent person acting as the middle man for most daily operations is desirable though

Agreed. There is a role for a good manager to filter ideas from the business side and make sure all asks are building towards the products future. If the funnel is "sales people => engineers" you're likely to get a lot of spurious development that doesn't make the product better.

Reminds me of the "if apple built every feature requested" meme.

https://twitter.com/blader/status/1698369360581337399/photo/...

Re: Oh my poor business logic

#97
post #74
post #22

Developers can focus on the business logic when they're close to the business. Look for places where you sit close to the business people, talk to them a lot, maybe even talk to customers. Where you're part of a team that has a responsibility of delivering product X to customers rather than a team that has a responsibility of doing things that use technology Y. The more organisational layers you have between you and…

> The more organisational layers you have between you and the customers - architects, business analysts, and the like - the more disconnected your work will be from the business value. In every company I have worked for in the last 10 years, the layer in between business experts and software engineers has been always: the manager (either product manager or eng. manager). It's a bottleneck. The flow usually goes like…

When I worked disaster recover and continuity, we had to map every business process.

We would make one map from the info the managers told us and one map of the actual processes by talking to every single employee involved.

We frequently found critical processes no manager knew about and also that some random secretary was the focal point for entire departments (mundane processes no one else wanted)

Re: Oh my poor business logic

#99
post #22

Developers can focus on the business logic when they're close to the business. Look for places where you sit close to the business people, talk to them a lot, maybe even talk to customers. Where you're part of a team that has a responsibility of delivering product X to customers rather than a team that has a responsibility of doing things that use technology Y. The more organisational layers you have between you and…

Where I've seen this problem to be the most acute, it's not because of organizational disconnect -- it's the lack of domain knowledge on the part of the programmers.

Medical software, for example, is ripe with examples of how programmers are completely clueless about clinical applications and implications of whatever they are doing. There's probably no other field where programming was misapplied as often and failed in such hilarious (and devastating) ways. For example, there's a lot of programming happening around various imaging modalities. Often you'd hear about programs that do X better than a radiologist. Only to discover that the programmers who wrote the program had no idea what radiologist was even doing.

Just at the start of COVID pandemic there were countless programs written to identify the virus in chest X-rays. A lot claimed success... while the clinical truth is that X-rays on their own cannot tell you if a patient has COVID, it's indistinguishable form pneumonia or a bunch of other things. The diagnosis must be made using labwork. Sometimes it's possible to be moderately confident relying on both X-ray and presentation, but not judging by X-ray alone.

Similarly, I had a chance to work on complicated budgeting and banking software. It was a joke how nobody knew what the hell the program was supposed to do and how the QA were driven up the wall by not being able to get reliable information from the partners about how certain aspects of the program should perform. Forget the developers, who'd at best got a written spec for their tiny fraction of the product and had no idea how it fits into the larger picture or what exactly it's supposed to do.

Sadly, a lot of programmers have this unwarranted confidence that they just need to read the problem description and they'll be able to program a solution for it. For complex problems that require a lot of expertise this, at best, results in solutions that are extremely convoluted and painful to use for the end user.

Re: Oh my poor business logic

#100
post #82
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, reminds me of about 25/30 years ago when low code was at its high. Back then there were strict guidelines where to put business logic (client, server or both), how to name them. Everything had to originate from the model (model driven development). Since then the developers took over and killed waterfall and 4GL in the process.

Genuine question, what were the low code frameworks that were popular in the late 90’s that you’re referencing here?

Forgot most of that, I consider this 'enterprise period' in my life as pretty boring.

There was one product really popular then, but forgot the name. Sorry.

A product I personally know is Oracle Designer. This could generate fairly complicate applications (like master-detail-detail layouts) based on the ERD.

Another product I also forgot it's name, was considered very good, but used only within the IBM ecosystem. Fun fact, I was the product owner for a project where the IBM team vastly outperformed the web team (think half the size, twice the speed).

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