Is there anywhere in the world someone can just live for free? • Hacker News Board

Re: Is there anywhere in the world someone can just live for free?

#471

Post by em-bee » Tue, Nov 07, 2023, 1:25 PM UTC

t0bia_s wrote: post #466

em-bee wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the problem is that this is not an exclusive either taxes or free market question. also taxes are simply mandatory contributions. that doesn't require a centralized power. but they are not a free market either. the examples i gave can not be solved in a free market. there are more: access to water in areas where i can't dig my own well (or where uncontrolled water use causes problems). solving this with a free market…

Where there is demand, there is supply. Price, that is not shaped or regulated by central authority, evolves with possibilities. Why would anyone throw trash on street, with full of bins? Mandate usualy change human behavior in opposite direction.

this is evolving into an argument about the efficiency of the free market, which i am not interested in. there is plenty of evidence that the completely unregulated free market doesn't work, because for example it favors services that are profitable.

Why would anyone throw trash on street

because it is to expensive to pay for someone to clean it up.

Re: Is there anywhere in the world someone can just live for free?

#472

Post by arromatic » Tue, Nov 07, 2023, 2:21 PM UTC

shyn3 wrote: post #195

oooyay wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it possible to make a system that sustains itself? Right now I've got a worm farm going that produces viable compost pretty often, but the Berkely Method would be faster. I have four chickens that produce yards and yards of compost every 3 months and require about a cup of corn a day. You'd need to scale the chicken operation to cover whatever your three month compost needs are and you'd need people to eat or use…

America had better tech except now everything is built to break otherwise the air backed monetary system would fall apart if planned obsolescence didn't exist. The only reason costs are so high is because money can be printed at will so your savings will always be reduced. Sadly most people don't learn anything about finance and think stocks and bonds are good investment vehicles and fractional reserve is great. I gu…

Can you elaborate more ? I am curious.

Re: Is there anywhere in the world someone can just live for free?

#473

Post by t0bia_s » Tue, Nov 07, 2023, 2:48 PM UTC

em-bee wrote: post #471

t0bia_s wrote: post #466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where there is demand, there is supply. Price, that is not shaped or regulated by central authority, evolves with possibilities. Why would anyone throw trash on street, with full of bins? Mandate usualy change human behavior in opposite direction.

this is evolving into an argument about the efficiency of the free market, which i am not interested in. there is plenty of evidence that the completely unregulated free market doesn't work, because for example it favors services that are profitable. Why would anyone throw trash on street because it is to expensive to pay for someone to clean it up.

Believe or not, not all businesses are interested in to maximalism of profit. At the end, regulations are shaped by lobby. Otherwise we wouldn't drive and buy heavier cars every year and at same time care about co2 consumption for example.

- because it is to expensive to pay for someone to clean it up.

Isn't that one of reasons to throw it in to bin instead?

Re: Is there anywhere in the world someone can just live for free?

#474

Post by PaulDavisThe1st » Tue, Nov 07, 2023, 3:21 PM UTC

mikhailfranco wrote: post #464

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree. If the rewards of a human venture (involving some amount of capital, labor and IP, but almost certainly all 3) do not go to capitalism, then it's not a capitalist venture. There are certainly other ways of distributing the rewards, no question about that. So the question arises: why do the rewards go preferentially to capital in so many of the ventures that exist in our system? Your argument claims tha…

So you don't think there is a market for labor? You don't think that wages, benefits and workplace conditions (heath & safety), have any effect on where people work? Do you think there are fixed wages for certain categories of jobs, like some soviet economy? Do you think that most jobs are long-term-fixed contracts at some low penalty rate, like indentured servitude? Do you think there are still company towns where p…

As I outlined, markets != capitalism. It seems you've wandered far away from my whole point. Free markets, entrepeneurialism are a part of contemporary US capitalism, but they can also exist in systems that are not capitalist.

For a system to be capitalist, it requires additional features, and the most significant of these is the way the rewards of human ventures are distributed (i.e. primarily towards those who invest capital rather than labor or IP in the venture).

Re: Is there anywhere in the world someone can just live for free?

#475

Post by em-bee » Tue, Nov 07, 2023, 4:34 PM UTC

t0bia_s wrote: post #473

em-bee wrote: post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this is evolving into an argument about the efficiency of the free market, which i am not interested in. there is plenty of evidence that the completely unregulated free market doesn't work, because for example it favors services that are profitable. Why would anyone throw trash on street because it is to expensive to pay for someone to clean it up.

Believe or not, not all businesses are interested in to maximalism of profit. At the end, regulations are shaped by lobby. Otherwise we wouldn't drive and buy heavier cars every year and at same time care about co2 consumption for example. - because it is to expensive to pay for someone to clean it up. Isn't that one of reasons to throw it in to bin instead?

Believe or not, not all businesses are interested in to maximalism of profit

that's easy to disprove. there are businesses that do not care about maximizing profit, but have other goals. (look up b-corp for one form of that. in my own business the goal is to maximize the number of jobs that i can create)

regulations are shaped by lobby

which is really bad, because it means those who are the loudest get their way and everyone else suffers.

throw it into trash bins? and who empties the trash bins?

the point you are missing is that if noone pays for trash removal then trash doesn't get removed. so either everyone pays for their own, or the community collects money and everyone contributes to that. there is no way around that.

Re: Is there anywhere in the world someone can just live for free?

#476

Post by t0bia_s » Tue, Nov 07, 2023, 11:17 PM UTC

em-bee wrote: post #475

t0bia_s wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Believe or not, not all businesses are interested in to maximalism of profit. At the end, regulations are shaped by lobby. Otherwise we wouldn't drive and buy heavier cars every year and at same time care about co2 consumption for example. - because it is to expensive to pay for someone to clean it up. Isn't that one of reasons to throw it in to bin instead?

Believe or not, not all businesses are interested in to maximalism of profit that's easy to disprove. there are businesses that do not care about maximizing profit, but have other goals. (look up b-corp for one form of that. in my own business the goal is to maximize the number of jobs that i can create) regulations are shaped by lobby which is really bad, because it means those who are the loudest get their way and…

Lobby is absent in non regulated environment. Only competition maters.

Bin empties a company that is payed for its job. Now it doesn't matter how much waste you produce, because its mandated and same for all for same price. But not all litter a same. Which makes inequalities. Same for health care (EU), education, etc.

Re: Is there anywhere in the world someone can just live for free?

#477

Post by em-bee » Wed, Nov 08, 2023, 12:01 AM UTC

t0bia_s wrote: post #476

em-bee wrote: post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Believe or not, not all businesses are interested in to maximalism of profit that's easy to disprove. there are businesses that do not care about maximizing profit, but have other goals. (look up b-corp for one form of that. in my own business the goal is to maximize the number of jobs that i can create) regulations are shaped by lobby which is really bad, because it means those who are the loudest get their way and…

Lobby is absent in non regulated environment. Only competition maters. Bin empties a company that is payed for its job. Now it doesn't matter how much waste you produce, because its mandated and same for all for same price. But not all litter a same. Which makes inequalities. Same for health care (EU), education, etc.

mandated aka forced contribution aka taxes.

you might argue that taxes are not the same thing, but i disagree. the point is that it is a required contribution, which is a condition for living in a community, which was the argument that i started with.

Re: Is there anywhere in the world someone can just live for free?

#478

Post by t0bia_s » Wed, Nov 08, 2023, 7:09 AM UTC

em-bee wrote: post #477

t0bia_s wrote: post #476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lobby is absent in non regulated environment. Only competition maters. Bin empties a company that is payed for its job. Now it doesn't matter how much waste you produce, because its mandated and same for all for same price. But not all litter a same. Which makes inequalities. Same for health care (EU), education, etc.

mandated aka forced contribution aka taxes. you might argue that taxes are not the same thing, but i disagree. the point is that it is a required contribution, which is a condition for living in a community, which was the argument that i started with.

You miss my point here. Im strongly against manadatory and forced contributions. If you don't see a purpose in financing something, force to do it brings inequalities and in long term create conflicts. I prefer reasonable choices that have sense for you or community.

Imagine businesses in private sector that would charge you for things that you don't ordered. Its nonsense, somehow tolerable if done by state.

Re: Is there anywhere in the world someone can just live for free?

#479

Post by em-bee » Wed, Nov 08, 2023, 7:13 AM UTC

t0bia_s wrote: post #478

em-bee wrote: post #477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

mandated aka forced contribution aka taxes. you might argue that taxes are not the same thing, but i disagree. the point is that it is a required contribution, which is a condition for living in a community, which was the argument that i started with.

You miss my point here. Im strongly against manadatory and forced contributions. If you don't see a purpose in financing something, force to do it brings inequalities and in long term create conflicts. I prefer reasonable choices that have sense for you or community. Imagine businesses in private sector that would charge you for things that you don't ordered. Its nonsense, somehow tolerable if done by state.

then who cleans up the trash?

charge you for things that you don't ordered

that is not what is happening here. the state is not some foreign entity, but the elected representative will of the community. i want the trash taken care of, and so does the majority of the community.

if your government does not do what your community wants then you don't live in a functioning democracy. that is a different problem alltogether.

in summary: free market will not take care of those problems i mentioned. if you disagree, then i'd like to see a specific explanation how a free market can take care of those issues.

anything mandatory is not a free market.

to get these things taken care of, the community will have to enact rules or delegate someone to do it. how it makes that decision is is up to the community. it doesn't require a government that is not under the control of the community. nor does the existence of taxes imply the existence of such a government.

Re: Is there anywhere in the world someone can just live for free?

#480

Post by t0bia_s » Wed, Nov 08, 2023, 11:37 AM UTC

em-bee wrote: post #479

t0bia_s wrote: post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You miss my point here. Im strongly against manadatory and forced contributions. If you don't see a purpose in financing something, force to do it brings inequalities and in long term create conflicts. I prefer reasonable choices that have sense for you or community. Imagine businesses in private sector that would charge you for things that you don't ordered. Its nonsense, somehow tolerable if done by state.

then who cleans up the trash? charge you for things that you don't ordered that is not what is happening here. the state is not some foreign entity, but the elected representative will of the community. i want the trash taken care of, and so does the majority of the community. if your government does not do what your community wants then you don't live in a functioning democracy. that is a different problem alltogeth…

- if your government does not do what your community wants then you don't live in a functioning democracy.

Democracy is rule of majority and make inequalities by definition. Minorities needs to accept rules that they do not agree with. It's like monopoly except it is forbidden to do competition by law. Decentralisation of taxes or financial system could solve many issues that escalate recently.

- i'd like to see a specific explanation how a free market can take care of those issues.

I don't think free market solve issues. Decentralisation and gathering in local communities could. Less mandateds = less laws = less taxes = more personal responsibility which means more effective solving problems that really matter for you and your close one.

- to get these things taken care of, the community will have to enact rules or delegate someone to do it. how it makes that decision is is up to the community. it doesn't require a government that is not under the control of the community. nor does the existence of taxes imply the existence of such a government.

I agree with that.