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Northlight technology in Alan Wake 2

remedygames.com

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Re: Northlight technology in Alan Wake 2

#131

Post by iamcreasy »

ux-app wrote: post #106
SirMaster wrote: post #26

In the first example it's still really jarring how much their feet slide around on the ground, or sliding in place as they walk into an object without moving. I wonder when this will ever be solved. Don't get me wrong, the engine is incredible and the visuals and systems are some of the best we have seen.

It's always a tradeoff between responsive movement and realistic movement. RDR2 has very realistic animations, with the tradeoff being slightly "floaty" controls. Personally I prefer snappy movement i.e. when I press left the screen character moves left immediately. A more realistic looking animation system introduces a delay while you wait for the feet animation to "catch up" to player input.

> Personally I prefer snappy movement

I do too, but also think it greatly depends on the game. For example, Hollow Knight designed to have snappy response to player input from the start and I loved it. In RDR2, I find the floaty behaviour adds another layer of realism.

Re: Northlight technology in Alan Wake 2

#132

Post by ajdoingnothing »

Keyframe wrote: post #95
jay_kyburz wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how long it will be before we stop using animation and switch to an actual bipedal physics simulation where the agent actually knows how to walk and jump and run.

We were there over a decade ago with Euphoria, but I think they've stopped selling/developing it? GTA 4 used it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HauN98naZ9U

GTA IV's tech was quite ahead of its time (2008), with the integration of Euphoria (which had to be integrated in-house by NaturalMotion engineers inside Rockstar's studio @ Edinburgh). The other comment correctly pointed out that NaturalMotion was acquired by Zynga, who in turn got acquired by Take-Two (parent of Rockstar Games).. So who knows, perhaps we'll still see an updated version in the sixth major instalment of the franchise.

Re: Northlight technology in Alan Wake 2

#133

Post by mcbrit »

mcbrit wrote: post #115

From the first few sentences of the article: "ECS meant that iteration was quick because adding new or modifying existing systems or game objects was easy, and performance gains were clear when saving and loading the Case Board." and there's an accompanying screenshot with perhaps 20 objects on a case board. I scanned through the rest of the article with one question in mind: what the hell? ECS is not a solution to p…

[flagged]

Re: Northlight technology in Alan Wake 2

#134

Post by ncallaway »

_kulang wrote: post #111
ux-app wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I guess the problem there is pretty fundamental yes absolutely, you can't have both realism and snappy response times.

Considering you walk around and don’t have a problem with it, I’d wager that putting a more realistic walk model into a game and changing the control scheme to be a bit more natural would lead to a learnable system for control that would achieve both goals. Say ZMP

> Considering you walk around and don’t have a problem with it

Your brain is hiding a lot from you.

Re: Northlight technology in Alan Wake 2

#135

Post by dymk »

capableweb wrote: post #13
kg wrote: post #3

Considering their size (a few hundred people for the whole studio AFAIK), Remedy consistently punches above their weight when it comes to graphics. Off the top of my head only Remedy and CD Projekt Red are able to compete with the big dogs (Unreal, Unity, EA Frostbite) when it comes to image fidelity and performance. Their GDC/siggraph/etc presentations are fantastic for anyone interested in computer graphics or tech…

> without having the 'every NPC has 10k-poly teeth in their mouth' problem that's currently sabotaging Cities Skylines 2's performance Sad to see an otherwise good comment end with a misconception. The problems with the performance is much grander than just "teeth rendered but not visible" ( https://blog.paavo.me/cities-skylines-2-performance/ ), although I guess it's a illustrative point. Missing LODs and lack of cu…

The article you linked specifically points out how expensive and unoptimized the teeth are. I'm not sure why you linked it, if it undermines the point you're trying to make?

Re: Northlight technology in Alan Wake 2

#136

Post by lukeholder »

jordanthoms wrote: post #107
ux-app wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's always a tradeoff between responsive movement and realistic movement. RDR2 has very realistic animations, with the tradeoff being slightly "floaty" controls. Personally I prefer snappy movement i.e. when I press left the screen character moves left immediately. A more realistic looking animation system introduces a delay while you wait for the feet animation to "catch up" to player input.

I guess the problem there is pretty fundamental - in reality you'd be tensing muscles and shifting your weight etc before the snappy movement, but the game only knows that you want to move when you move the stick or push a button - so it either has to show that realistic motion after your button press and introduce latency, or sacrifice the realism in the animations.

Correct, this is an issue in nba2k but it’s become a fundamental part of the game. As they made movements more realistic they introduced a delay. So when you try and get around you opponent you direct half a second before you move, but your defender also has to move their player - not in reaction to the screen but also in anticipation of your move in order to defend you. I actually think this is more like real life which makes the game better, but a lot less frantic than basketball arcade games of the past.

Re: Northlight technology in Alan Wake 2

#137

Post by wilg »

SirMaster wrote: post #26

In the first example it's still really jarring how much their feet slide around on the ground, or sliding in place as they walk into an object without moving. I wonder when this will ever be solved. Don't get me wrong, the engine is incredible and the visuals and systems are some of the best we have seen.

Alan Wake II actually does have the best approach to this animation issue that I am aware of – motion matching, which is mentioned in the blog post. Used by Naughty Dog and many others. But as the other comments point out, there is still a fundamental tension between responsiveness and animation accuracy.

Re: Northlight technology in Alan Wake 2

#138

Post by wilg »

Tade0 wrote: post #36
SirMaster wrote: post #26

In the first example it's still really jarring how much their feet slide around on the ground, or sliding in place as they walk into an object without moving. I wonder when this will ever be solved. Don't get me wrong, the engine is incredible and the visuals and systems are some of the best we have seen.

I've seen a demonstration of a solution on the YouTube channel Two Minute Papers - it was actually about an algorithm that blended animations so that the transitions looked natural.

I think you may be referring to motion matching, which this game uses and is discussed briefly in the article.

Re: Northlight technology in Alan Wake 2

#139

Post by wilg »

cubefox wrote: post #47
throwaway879423 wrote: post #42

Am I the only who have no interest in graphics fidelity, but would like to see more physics engines created to play with? Like a fully destructible world would be fun.

There was actually a regress in this respect. Some ten years ago there was a "destructible physics" boom in many big games, but nowadays most games abandoned it. There seems to be a trade-off between graphical fidelity and the opportunity for physics-based manipulation of the environment.

It's also a whole game design challenge. It has to actually offer something fun and improve the gameplay.

Re: Northlight technology in Alan Wake 2

#140

Post by firecall »

_kulang wrote: post #111
ux-app wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I guess the problem there is pretty fundamental yes absolutely, you can't have both realism and snappy response times.

Considering you walk around and don’t have a problem with it, I’d wager that putting a more realistic walk model into a game and changing the control scheme to be a bit more natural would lead to a learnable system for control that would achieve both goals. Say ZMP

Of course there is already measurable lag from when your brain tells your hand and fingers to move, to when they actually move!

An interesting personal anecdote I have:

I damaged my back with bulging disc, which caused horrific sciatica nerve pain.

When I was able to walk again, I had some nerve damage.

This meant I had lag in my left leg!

I’d tell the leg to move instinctively when walking and there would be a delay. The entire walking movement of the leg was present, but just with a noticeable lag!

It was weird!

Eventually it healed fully, or I adjusted. Not sure which! :-)

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