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Judge Dismisses Copyright Claims Against AI Image Generators

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Re: Judge Dismisses Copyright Claims Against AI Image Generators

#91
post #4

Am I wrong that this seems like a not-good precedent for artists/content creators and the future (much less present) of training data?

If it turns out that passing a data set through PyTorch creates enough distance between the source material and the resulting data set to invalidate copyright protections, it will be interesting to see what happens when somebody does that to AI companies' assets.

With the "edge computing in AI" push (offline processing on phones and the like), we might see soon enough.

Re: Judge Dismisses Copyright Claims Against AI Image Generators

#92
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you’re proposing two big expansions to copyright: 1) that it covers what an observer can do, and 2) that everything is illegal unless explicitly made legal. I don’t think I want to live in that world.

I'm proposing nothing, as far as I know that is how it is now. A browser viewing a web page is making a copy of the web page which is governed by copyright. Except by making a web page you give people the right to make that copy. Lots of interesting lawsuits around that regarding bots, scrapping, etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implied_license

See this kind of thing here is what I think is a problem and has been a problem forever. We have two opposite laws on this,

1. Copying is theft (contents of a CD [software], movies, stuff on a website sometimes, etc)

2. Copying is not theft (VHS copies of broadcasts, cassettes, etc)

Problem is "implied license" (eula-roofie) where we've, without any good reason I think, decided that,

(a) Copying is theft when someone unilaterally declares what you buy to be different from the medium (CD vs what's on it [software, movie, etc])

(a)(2) except when it's a really old medium like a book which you're allowed to quote, and use in derivation, but don't you dare "quote a movie" by copying portions off that DVD or blu-ray because that's different. Shut up is why.

(b) Copying is theft when someone unilaterally declares their putting something up to view, which necessarily requires copying to view (sent over internet), can't be copied for derivative fair use

(b)(2) except when it's over another old medium like public broadcast because... fuck you? I haven't a clue myself how this makes any sense and I suspect it is because "it doesn't".

(c) Copying is theft if you take the copy sent you over the internet and do anything with it somebody unilaterally declares they don't want you to be able to do

(c)(2) except if it's an old medium, like a book, where you can borrow it and quote from it and do all the fair use stuff, or borrow a picture, or a painting, or...

All the fair use and copying and other sensible stuff without this weird "implied license" stuff doesn't exist for formats we've had before to the extent it does now. These formats, in principle, are still just "you get a copy of a thing on some medium", and yet we have two completely different laws based on this pure fiction of an "implied license" that declares you can't copy even portions of one on some format because... because.

I am trying, desperately, to explain there is fundamentally and in principle no difference. The root of all of our problems and why the law doesn't make any sense is the pure fiction that there IS a difference. And I feel like a goddamn madman yelling in the streets trying to explain something that feels so dog gon obvious to me but seems like is obvious to nobody else.

Re: Judge Dismisses Copyright Claims Against AI Image Generators

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The line is pretty simple for me, because it's the same line that applies to people. It doesn't matter what the training set is so long as it is not reproducing either the same thing or too similar to the thing it's trained from. Somebody else linked that you can't generally copyright style for instance, and if I recall you can't copyright algorithms or things of general knowledge either. So you can copyright "a spec…

> It just seems obvious to me... > The line is pretty simple for me... When things seem so obvious and simple, it can be a good mental exercise to try to put yourself in the shoes of the "other side" for whom it also seems obvious and simple. While never my main thing, I've worked as a professional artist and know people for whom art is their livelihood. The holy grail in that world is to create a unique style that w…

>When things seem so obvious and simple, it can be a good mental exercise to try to put yourself in the shoes of the "other side" for whom it also seems obvious and simple.

I would if I could but as I keep tryin to explain I can't because it requires I believe something that's a contradiction.

Just because it's a contradiction that makes ya more money don't mean it isn't a contradiction. Also I am that non-technical person.

Re: Judge Dismisses Copyright Claims Against AI Image Generators

#94
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The line is pretty simple for me, because it's the same line that applies to people. It doesn't matter what the training set is so long as it is not reproducing either the same thing or too similar to the thing it's trained from. Somebody else linked that you can't generally copyright style for instance, and if I recall you can't copyright algorithms or things of general knowledge either. So you can copyright "a spec…

> so long as it is not [...] too similar to the thing it's trained from Aye, there's the rub ;) How do you define "too similar"? If I invert the colors of Munch's The Scream, is that an original work? What if I pass it through a computer program I wrote to swirl it around in a spiral? I think those are clearly derivative works--you put the image in as input, put it through a mechanical transformation process, and get…

>Aye, there's the rub ;) How do you define "too similar"?

... Same ways I do for humans. That's why I wrote "the same as for people" that line was supposed to contextualize everything else I wrote and somehow it hasn't.

edited to fix a screwup. because somehow I swear I hit "copy" but it didn't copy

Re: Judge Dismisses Copyright Claims Against AI Image Generators

#95
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are actually the one doing something though. If a line appears on the page, it’s because that’s your intent. For an AI, when a line appears, that is always someone else’s intent. AI can only copy. I mean. Do we really need to go over all the reason why an art scanner that copies art and maybe paints it differently is fundamentally not the same as a human learning to create art?

> AI can only copy. That's just plain wrong. AI can generate things that are not in the training set, hence it can not "only copy" (on the other hand, I could understand trying to argue that AI can only create pastiche, or that it "uses" training examples in a fundamentally different way than we do).

Prove it.

Fundamentally, AI image creators stitch together images, then try to apply an art style.

You might call it “unique” because it stitches things together wrong (hello 10 fingers on one hand), but it is still fundamentally just copying, pasting, and then deforming lines together.

People claiming that AIs understand what they’re doing and that what AIs do is not fundamentally copying and pasting are the ones who have the burden of proof here.

Re: Judge Dismisses Copyright Claims Against AI Image Generators

#96
post #45
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are actually the one doing something though. If a line appears on the page, it’s because that’s your intent. For an AI, when a line appears, that is always someone else’s intent. AI can only copy. I mean. Do we really need to go over all the reason why an art scanner that copies art and maybe paints it differently is fundamentally not the same as a human learning to create art?

AI does not copy Diffusion models are exposed to a blank canvas and then instructed to produce something. At no point are they looking into a database. They simply produce an image that will score highly in their aesthetic estimations.

Prove it.

Train an AI just on a few techniques. Then a couple fundamental stock photos with nothing but the subject. Then have it generate things outside of the realm of the stock photos recombined in a general style. Let us see your completely unique and unpredictable results.

Re: Judge Dismisses Copyright Claims Against AI Image Generators

#97
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do have recourse available, but registering the copyright is a required step in seeking that recourse, and must be done before suing. > Title 17 U. S. C. §411(a) states that “no civil action for infringement of the copyright in any United States work shall be instituted until ... registration of the copyright claim has been made in accordance with this title.” > ... however, a copyright owner can recover for infr…

It's possibly an interesting wrinkle given that, especially for certain types of works, the vast bulk of material is likely copyrighted but not registered.

> interesting wrinkle

Far more then that, it's an absolute show-stopper for any potential lawsuits, as it's really unlikely any potential litigant will be able to prove that even a large majority of the images have been registered, and thus eligible for a lawsuit.

Re: Judge Dismisses Copyright Claims Against AI Image Generators

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the synthesis was created with material that the AI company did not license and did not have permission to use for this purpose. I have ZERO issue with image generators on their own. They're quite cool technology. The only thing I and tons and tons of other people have requested is they not use images without permission to train them, that's literally it. That's my sole, single, solitary objection and yet every A…

If I take a copy of your art to hang on my wall, I've violated your copyright. But if I "copy" the experiential knowledge of your art into my brain by viewing it, I'm not violating your copyright. My brain doesn't contain a copy of the art, it's just been influenced by viewing it, and I might be more capable of producing art that mimics your style. What these models are doing feels, to me, vastly more like the second…

But you are not capable of reproducing from your mind something that is in that artists' style, after that viewing. If you show someone a painting and ask them to recreate it, even setting aside the skill gap, you do not get the same painting back. You get a different painting, with some overlap, with the "focus" of it being what the person paid the most attention to during their viewing.

In this way, ML training is just not the same as a person being inspired by or even being asked to recreate another person's creative work. Over the course of making something, an artists' "voice" would be best characterized I feel as the tiny choices they make along the way that all point to and reinforce a larger point or purpose to the piece. This "voice" shows up in all creative output, not just spoken word. That is what I feel people are feeling is lacking in generated art: because a machine-learning model does not have a voice, it does not have intent, it has a mandate from a third party from which it tries to draw from, and instead of making numerous, tiny but contributory choices, it instead decides on a weighted average of all the choices made in the art that the model was trained upon, which is simply not the same thing.

It makes all generated art have this very sterile, soulless feeling to it because these tiny choices that would otherwise be made by a person trying to illicit an effect are instead just the machine sort of shrugging and being like "well in most things I've seen where a woman is sitting this way, her hand is tilted this way" but it doesn't know why the hand is tilted or what that means for the subject, which means the hand-tilt might be applied to subjects for whom it makes absolutely no sense at all to tilt the hand.

Re: Judge Dismisses Copyright Claims Against AI Image Generators

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really see a way they can make their claims "more accurate" unless these models decide to open-source - and why would they ever do that?

It's hard to remember exactly what my problem with it was, but if you look up the original filing and read what the artists claim is being done with their images, you can clearly seem some invalid assertions on their part. That's why I even took an interest in the case, in the first place. I like Anderson and I think what she's aiming for is a good goal, but when I read the case I was like "oh shit, this is doomed to…

The IP lawyers I've talked to about this at length—and who don't have a particular axe to grind—are pretty skeptical in general outside of a specific output being a derivative work of a specific copyrighted work. The argument against generative AI seems (IANAL) to rest on there being some sort of collective copyright (across many different creators and even including works that are not actually copyrighted at all) which somehow carries over to an output that, had a human created it would probably be seen as an original work.

I get the emotional appeal to companies are using my stuff without paying me or even crediting me. But, as I understand it, works are normally considered derivative of specific works—not some large corpus.

Re: Judge Dismisses Copyright Claims Against AI Image Generators

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I'm not missing that at all. Put another way, if I create a Rube Goldberg painting machine, what copyright law applies? Why is that different than if I create/train/prompt an AI to do the work? One is physical, one is digital, but both require a human to create and initiate. And in both cases, every decision that human makes is made based on their life's experiences. No art exists in a vacuum. All art is derivative.

Let’s try something radical: not putting it any way.

A machine has no rights, and it doesnt learn as humans do.

I know the cult leader, altman, wants you to think otherwise, but no, stealing people’s work to make ai viable is not OK.

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