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Out-braking the ABS myth [video]

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Re: Out-braking the ABS myth [video]

#81

Post by Night_Thastus »

rqtwteye wrote: post #21
j-a-a-p wrote: post #4

I did a anti-slip course where we learned dosed breaking to reduce break distance. And once a circuit racing course where the instructor just told me to break with all force available. The latter stuck. This instructor logic was, only if you are a pro driver you actually can outperform ABS. In emergency situations I break with full force without hesitation. This has lead to multiple avoided crashes and TBH two back c…

"In emergency situations I break with full force without hesitation. This has lead to multiple avoided crashes and TBH two back collisions. Once I pushed so hard the break light sensor had to be replaced." I think full braking should be part of driver training. A lot of people I know are very hesitant to brake full force and I think a lot of accidents happen because people don't really brake all out when needed. As f…

What's interesting to me is that in emergencies, apparently many people don't brake hard enough.

So now they've created brake-assist options that try to determine when such a case is occurring, and slam on the brakes as hard as the car is able.

As incredulous as that sounds, it's apparently improved overall safety.

From what I've read the tech has been around since the 90's but has become much more standard.

Re: Out-braking the ABS myth [video]

#82

Post by Gabrys1 »

tass wrote: post #60
dsego wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh sorry, this was my experience in 20-30 year old cars, they push back, so you need a firm hold on the brake.

No don't be sorry, I'm mainly curious if they still had the same feeling. I don't know the last time I had to brake hard enough to need ABS in the car, if they still had that feeling, or even if my car has brake-by-wire.

I don't think your car has full brake by wire. You should be able to operate the brake (to some extent) even if the car systems are not fully working.

I also learnt that teslas (at least the 3 and y) don't do steer by wire so when you play the games using your steering wheel you so turn the wheels a little bit.

Re: Out-braking the ABS myth [video]

#83

Post by JohnFen »

aidenn0 wrote: post #72
david_acm wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For this precise reason I like to drive with tons of buffer to the car ahead. Given the fact that I am usually in a sports car, I know I can brake much faster than most people around me. Should I need to come to a complete stop, I can control the braking distance to make sure the cars behind me are not only aware that I'm coming to a full stop, which gives them the time/distance they need to brake, but it also gives…

> An added bonus is that most of time the impatient drivers will just go around me and I don't need to worry too much about tailgaters. I so wish this were more true; I've been tailgated for 10s of miles in the right lane on a freeway with light traffic that was never fewer than 3 lanes for the entirety of that distance.

When I've encountered this, I've just taken my foot off the accelerator and let the car gradually lose speed. Eventually, the person behind loses patience and passes me angrily.

Re: Out-braking the ABS myth [video]

#84

Post by JohnFen »

grecy wrote: post #37
rqtwteye wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"In emergency situations I break with full force without hesitation. This has lead to multiple avoided crashes and TBH two back collisions. Once I pushed so hard the break light sensor had to be replaced." I think full braking should be part of driver training. A lot of people I know are very hesitant to brake full force and I think a lot of accidents happen because people don't really brake all out when needed. As f…

> I think full braking should be part of driver training I thought it was. I distinctly remember my Dad telling me to slam on the brakes while teaching me to drive. I pushed them hard, but nothing crazy. He said to get up to speed and kick the pedal through the floor and hold it there. Older car, full lockup and skid for a good distance. We did that more than once. Now 25 years later, I do exactly the same thing ever…

> I distinctly remember my Dad telling me to slam on the brakes while teaching me to drive.

Same when my mother taught me to drive. She even took advantage of rainy days to take me out to a large empty parking lot and we practiced how to deal with hydroplaning.

Re: Out-braking the ABS myth [video]

#85

Post by sbierwagen »

rqtwteye wrote: post #21
j-a-a-p wrote: post #4

I did a anti-slip course where we learned dosed breaking to reduce break distance. And once a circuit racing course where the instructor just told me to break with all force available. The latter stuck. This instructor logic was, only if you are a pro driver you actually can outperform ABS. In emergency situations I break with full force without hesitation. This has lead to multiple avoided crashes and TBH two back c…

"In emergency situations I break with full force without hesitation. This has lead to multiple avoided crashes and TBH two back collisions. Once I pushed so hard the break light sensor had to be replaced." I think full braking should be part of driver training. A lot of people I know are very hesitant to brake full force and I think a lot of accidents happen because people don't really brake all out when needed. As f…

>I think full braking should be part of driver training.

Also if you lose brake assist. I've read a handful of "out of control car" stories where the driver reported the brakes didn't work. Well yes, without power brakes it feels like stepping on a piece of wood. You need to apply a LOT of force to stop a modern car without power brakes, "putting both feet on the pedal and pushing with everything you've got" a lot. Bending the brake pedal is better than crossing into oncoming traffic.

Re: Out-braking the ABS myth [video]

#86

Post by pdonis »

j-a-a-p wrote: post #4

I did a anti-slip course where we learned dosed breaking to reduce break distance. And once a circuit racing course where the instructor just told me to break with all force available. The latter stuck. This instructor logic was, only if you are a pro driver you actually can outperform ABS. In emergency situations I break with full force without hesitation. This has lead to multiple avoided crashes and TBH two back c…

> In that case I saw a SUV struggling to stop in my rear view mirror. I had enough control to move to the right and have that SUV crash into the vehicle in front of me.

As this example of yours shows, a key benefit of ABS (if you're not a professional driver) is that it allows you to steer as well as brake, by preventing the wheels from locking). IIRC studies have shown that the majority of accidents cannot be avoided by braking alone even with an optimal stopping distance; you need to be able to steer as well.

Re: Out-braking the ABS myth [video]

#87

Post by kqr »

thnswede wrote: post #7

IIRC this is part of the driving test theoretical portion in Sweden, and then a mandatory "experience the ABS/non-ABS braking". Not much of a myth, there. Spoiler: without ABS, you'll just spin into the moose. With ABS you maybe wont stop, but the main thing is not being crushed by the moose. Not joking about the moose. They put up cones and say this is the moose. Without ABS everyone spins like a carnival ride, and…

I don't know if it's part pf the standard practise but when I did this they also had that one car with more worn treads than the rest, and they didn't tell us. It was a huge difference on water!

Re: Out-braking the ABS myth [video]

#88

Post by pdonis »

labcomputer wrote: post #79
tass wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a modern ( In the past, this was likely true when ABS systems weren't able to control individual wheels. They can do that today, can check for wheel lock-ups and react dozens of times a second, and can therefore compensate for changing grip at different parts of the road during the entire stopping process. In formula 1, where ABS has been banned, drivers have the capability to manually adjust brake balance (front/…

> In a modern ( There is an old SAE paper published by Chrysler that I can't find at the moment. IIRC, it was published in 1968 or 1969, and evaluated their new all-wheel[1] ABS system (later to be sold on the 1969-1973 Imperial). The gist of it is that on most surfaces relevant passenger cars, ABS gives somewhat ~shorter~ [Edit: longer ] stopping distances but the difference is minimal compared to a trained professi…

> on most surfaces relevant passenger cars, ABS gives somewhat shorter stopping distances but the difference is minimal compared to a trained professional driver*

Hm. This [edit: the "shorter", which has now been corrected] doesn't fit my experience when I took advanced driver training years ago (I was a GM employee at the time). The training vehicles could have ABS enabled or disabled by a switch on the dashboard. The instructor first disabled ABS and had me practice threshold braking, until I reached the point where I could negotiate a setup with cones where you had to swerve left, then swerve back right, all while braking enough to not overshoot. I was able to do that several times with threshold braking after some practice.

Then the instructor turned the ABS on and had me try the cones again. I overshot every time.

Of course this was some 20 years ago, and more recent ABS systems might do better. But the SAE paper you refer to was even earlier.

Re: Out-braking the ABS myth [video]

#89

Post by labcomputer »

pdonis wrote: post #88
labcomputer wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In a modern ( There is an old SAE paper published by Chrysler that I can't find at the moment. IIRC, it was published in 1968 or 1969, and evaluated their new all-wheel[1] ABS system (later to be sold on the 1969-1973 Imperial). The gist of it is that on most surfaces relevant passenger cars, ABS gives somewhat ~shorter~ [Edit: longer ] stopping distances but the difference is minimal compared to a trained professi…

> on most surfaces relevant passenger cars, ABS gives somewhat shorter stopping distances but the difference is minimal compared to a trained professional driver* Hm. This [edit: the "shorter", which has now been corrected] doesn't fit my experience when I took advanced driver training years ago (I was a GM employee at the time). The training vehicles could have ABS enabled or disabled by a switch on the dashboard. T…

> Hm. This doesn't fit my experience when I took advanced driver training years a

Yup, that was a typo, see edit.

Re: Out-braking the ABS myth [video]

#90

Post by JohnFen »

taylodl wrote: post #67

FortNine on HN! I love it when two different aspects of my life collide! For the HNers who don't know much about motorcycles, in the motorcycling world there's a big argument whether ABS is a net good or not. The old-timers tend to say "learn to ride your bike, you can beat ABS." Manufacturers site statistics saying ABS saves lives. This video is good in that it shows old-timer braking + ABS gives the best of both wo…

> The old-timers tend to say "learn to ride your bike, you can beat ABS." Manufacturers site statistics saying ABS saves lives.

It seems to me that both of these things can be true at the same time.

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