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Out-braking the ABS myth [video]

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Re: Out-braking the ABS myth [video]

#41

Post by aidenn0 »

thnswede wrote: post #7

IIRC this is part of the driving test theoretical portion in Sweden, and then a mandatory "experience the ABS/non-ABS braking". Not much of a myth, there. Spoiler: without ABS, you'll just spin into the moose. With ABS you maybe wont stop, but the main thing is not being crushed by the moose. Not joking about the moose. They put up cones and say this is the moose. Without ABS everyone spins like a carnival ride, and…

Considering the fact that I've seen deer total a car, I can't imagine what hitting a moose would do.

Re: Out-braking the ABS myth [video]

#42

Post by sojournerc »

rqtwteye wrote: post #21
j-a-a-p wrote: post #4

I did a anti-slip course where we learned dosed breaking to reduce break distance. And once a circuit racing course where the instructor just told me to break with all force available. The latter stuck. This instructor logic was, only if you are a pro driver you actually can outperform ABS. In emergency situations I break with full force without hesitation. This has lead to multiple avoided crashes and TBH two back c…

"In emergency situations I break with full force without hesitation. This has lead to multiple avoided crashes and TBH two back collisions. Once I pushed so hard the break light sensor had to be replaced." I think full braking should be part of driver training. A lot of people I know are very hesitant to brake full force and I think a lot of accidents happen because people don't really brake all out when needed. As f…

My driver's education in Colorado included going out on a frozen lake and practicing counter-steering into a slide, as well as a sense of how cars behave in slippery conditions. Very good skill to have for icy mountain driving.

You can also find an empty parking lot after a snow storm and do donuts for "education". Just avoid light poles ;)

Re: Out-braking the ABS myth [video]

#44

Post by Swizec »

sudosysgen wrote: post #25
Swizec wrote: post #9

FortNine is great but the conclusion in this video is a little silly. The best result comes from threshold braking with ABS enabled. Yeah no shit. As described in the video, motorcycles perform funny under braking. If you slam the brakes too fast, you have very little grip. ABS kicks in and you’re not stopping. If you progressively brake correctly, you transfer load to the front tyre and increase grip. ABS kicks in,…

The average car doesn't actually have more grip than the average motorcycle. More surface contact != More traction. Grip in a motorcycle is only really limited by gravity. That's still far better than most cars. The average motorcycle (or bicycle, for that matter) will have little problem hitting 35 degrees lean and therefore produce lateral G forces exceeding that of a typical car. Same is true for deceleration, the…

The biggest problem for bikes when it comes to grip, in my experience, is that there is no redundancy.

You brake hard, rear grip goes to zero, and you fishtail. Then you have to reduce braking force or you crash. This doesn’t happen in a car because unloading 2 independent tires is very hard.

You touch loose gravel going through a corner, front loses grip, you crash. Hitting the same gravel patch with 2+ car tires is unlikely.

Re: Out-braking the ABS myth [video]

#45

Post by Hamuko »

dsego wrote: post #38
rqtwteye wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"In emergency situations I break with full force without hesitation. This has lead to multiple avoided crashes and TBH two back collisions. Once I pushed so hard the break light sensor had to be replaced." I think full braking should be part of driver training. A lot of people I know are very hesitant to brake full force and I think a lot of accidents happen because people don't really brake all out when needed. As f…

But it also requires some resolve when the abs starts pushing back on the pedal. The instinct is to lift your foot instead of fighting the pedal, which is what you should do.

The instinct? I've never had that instinct since I've never driven a car without ABS for any extended period of time.

Re: Out-braking the ABS myth [video]

#46

Post by bdsa »

doubled112 wrote: post #17
thnswede wrote: post #7

IIRC this is part of the driving test theoretical portion in Sweden, and then a mandatory "experience the ABS/non-ABS braking". Not much of a myth, there. Spoiler: without ABS, you'll just spin into the moose. With ABS you maybe wont stop, but the main thing is not being crushed by the moose. Not joking about the moose. They put up cones and say this is the moose. Without ABS everyone spins like a carnival ride, and…

This is quite literally called "the moose test" is it not?

The moose test is more of a slalom around an object, and tests (sort of) stability rather than braking

Re: Out-braking the ABS myth [video]

#47

Post by david_acm »

saalweachter wrote: post #30
rqtwteye wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"In emergency situations I break with full force without hesitation. This has lead to multiple avoided crashes and TBH two back collisions. Once I pushed so hard the break light sensor had to be replaced." I think full braking should be part of driver training. A lot of people I know are very hesitant to brake full force and I think a lot of accidents happen because people don't really brake all out when needed. As f…

There are a lot of knock-on effects. For instance, a lot of drivers prefer to swerve rather than brake ... because they're afraid of getting hit from behind, because everyone is tail-gating.

For this precise reason I like to drive with tons of buffer to the car ahead. Given the fact that I am usually in a sports car, I know I can brake much faster than most people around me. Should I need to come to a complete stop, I can control the braking distance to make sure the cars behind me are not only aware that I'm coming to a full stop, which gives them the time/distance they need to brake, but it also gives me time to react to them should they fail to see me slowing down (not paying attention).

An added bonus is that most of time the impatient drivers will just go around me and I don't need to worry too much about tailgaters.

Re: Out-braking the ABS myth [video]

#48

Post by falcolas »

aidenn0 wrote: post #41
thnswede wrote: post #7

IIRC this is part of the driving test theoretical portion in Sweden, and then a mandatory "experience the ABS/non-ABS braking". Not much of a myth, there. Spoiler: without ABS, you'll just spin into the moose. With ABS you maybe wont stop, but the main thing is not being crushed by the moose. Not joking about the moose. They put up cones and say this is the moose. Without ABS everyone spins like a carnival ride, and…

Considering the fact that I've seen deer total a car, I can't imagine what hitting a moose would do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5S5QCOEzek

Mythbusters vs. Moose (rubber)

It's sobering.

Re: Out-braking the ABS myth [video]

#49

Post by JohnBooty »

david_acm wrote: post #29
JohnBooty wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got really good at pumping the brakes (is that "dosed braking"? new term to me) in the days before ABS. You can definitely get close to the performance of ABS with practice. Used to practice in the snow, in empty parking lots. (ABS or no ABS, everybody should safely practice recovering from spins and slides in empty parking lots! It's also really fun...) The idea that a pro could outperform ABS is surprising to hea…

I believe the term "pumping the brakes" refers to applying and releasing pressure on the brakes. With ABS off, a tire that's locked up (not spinning) will stop in a significantly longer distance than one that's at the limit of grip (slipping with a slight under-rotation). Assuming you have exceeded the limit of grip of the tires with the initial brake bite and the tires have started to lock up, by releasing and reapp…

That's really cool and informational. Thanks for posting that.

And yeah, pumping the brakes was essentially the "manual" version of ABS. Depressing and releasing as rapidly as possible.

Re: Out-braking the ABS myth [video]

#50

Post by tass »

dsego wrote: post #38
rqtwteye wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"In emergency situations I break with full force without hesitation. This has lead to multiple avoided crashes and TBH two back collisions. Once I pushed so hard the break light sensor had to be replaced." I think full braking should be part of driver training. A lot of people I know are very hesitant to brake full force and I think a lot of accidents happen because people don't really brake all out when needed. As f…

But it also requires some resolve when the abs starts pushing back on the pedal. The instinct is to lift your foot instead of fighting the pedal, which is what you should do.

With brake-by-wire, is this even necessary? I thought that ABS feeling occurred because the brake pedal was connected to the master cylinder, but isn't necessarily desired.

My bike definitely pulses the brakes in a way that you feel on the controls, but they are directly connected to the hydraulics.

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