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While Apple Is Criticized for Foxconn, Other Companies Are Silent

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Re: While Apple Is Criticized for Foxconn, Other Companies Are Silent

#81

Post by xenophanes »

lancewiggs wrote: post #73
theoj wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> The data does support the case. Oh, it does? Let's look at the article together and see if we can find that data: >> (The US rate is) 3.5 per 100,000: we would expect, if the Foxconn factories were no more dangerous than the average American workplace, 35 workplace deaths a year among those 1 million workers. Yes, each of those deaths, each of those injuries, in those aluminium dust explosions is a tragedy. But if…

It's relatively easy to hide accident stats. It's very difficult to hide fatalities - especially over time. I would be unsurprised at better safety stats than the US. With DuPont as one of several exceptions, the safety culture in the USA is still one of compliance. The mining record is awful versus global large companies. Apple and other customers are able to demand and get certain requirements met. A key part of th…

Lots of jobs are way more dangerous than assembly iPads. How would you die while assembling an iPad?

So a variety of US jobs against Foxconn isn't exactly comparing like with like.

I think this stat can exonerate Foxconn work as pretty safe even by US standards without condemning the US.

Re: While Apple Is Criticized for Foxconn, Other Companies Are Silent

#82

Post by AllenKids »

tatsuke95 wrote: post #29
rbarooah wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So do you think that Samsung for example, has less responsibility for its worker's conditions than Apple?

No, I don't. Look, I'm not particularly into this debate. I believe the conditions are relatively horrible, but there are lots of horrible things going on in the world, so it's not where I'd spend my time. At the end of the day, working at Foxconn is voluntary, as opposed to, say, cancer. That said, I'm glad that there are people in the world fighting this fight. It's how social change happens. And I'm going to assum…

> Because he's the hero Gotham deserves, but not the one it needs right now. So we'll hunt him because he can take it. Because he's not our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. A dark knight.

Why am I quoting a 2008 movie?

Re: While Apple Is Criticized for Foxconn, Other Companies Are Silent

#83

Post by glassx »

cooldeal wrote: post #72
rbarooah wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nokia isn't doing the most to improve working conditions. Apple is.

So someone who stopped beating the wife is more laudable than someone who never did?

To be fair, the correct analogy would be that someone (Apple) who makes a third person (contractors) stop beating the wife is more laudable than someone (Nokia) who never had to do it in the first place.

Re: While Apple Is Criticized for Foxconn, Other Companies Are Silent

#84

Post by brownbat »

Wintek poisoning, Riteng factory explosion, Foxconn...

I'm concerned about production in China generally, sure, but Apple suppliers are the ones that keep making headlines.

Maybe Apple's just been spectacularly unlucky, but it's like we have this shoe, and it matches Apple's foot size so well...

Re: While Apple Is Criticized for Foxconn, Other Companies Are Silent

#85

Post by sarvinc »

Kylekramer wrote: post #80
xal wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple is quite adamant on work weeks standards, however this is in direct conflicts with the workers (!!). In fact, workers at Foxcon and others have started preferring to work for other companies then Apple because they can't get the amount of paid overtime that they want. Remember, China is a very different place then the US. Simply taking our own standards and transplanting them onto this area of the world will le…

Nah, I think the standards are pretty universal. It isn't surprising they want more hours. It isn't like they love working, they love money (a very universal standard). The reason why it is in direct conflict with the workers is they aren't getting a fair wage. Overtime isn't a sign of happy workers, it is a sign of mismanagement and low wages.

This gave me pause; because I'd never thought of things this way. Unfortunately this doesn't seem to fit with my own experience. I've worked jobs that paid overtime. I worked overtime when I could, not because I felt the wage was unfair, but because I wanted the extra money.

Re: While Apple Is Criticized for Foxconn, Other Companies Are Silent

#86

Post by ktizo »

sarvinc wrote: post #85
Kylekramer wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah, I think the standards are pretty universal. It isn't surprising they want more hours. It isn't like they love working, they love money (a very universal standard). The reason why it is in direct conflict with the workers is they aren't getting a fair wage. Overtime isn't a sign of happy workers, it is a sign of mismanagement and low wages.

This gave me pause; because I'd never thought of things this way. Unfortunately this doesn't seem to fit with my own experience. I've worked jobs that paid overtime. I worked overtime when I could, not because I felt the wage was unfair, but because I wanted the extra money.

You average 56 hours a week?

[edit] also, are you supporting a family in this? That makes a huge difference to the economics in both needing more time and more money.

Re: While Apple Is Criticized for Foxconn, Other Companies Are Silent

#87

Post by dmoy »

nirvana wrote: post #53
dmoy wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are giving Apple a bit too much credit. Apple is not teaching the Chinese how to be ethical. Apple is not revolutionizing manufacturing in China. Apple is using a Chinese manufacturing company and giving them a lot of business. A LOTTTTT of business. This is a good thing. But you can't go from there to claim that Apple is somehow teaching the poor Chinese, who are incapable of ethical action. It sounds ve…

"claim that Apple is somehow teaching the poor Chinese, who are incapable of ethical action. It sounds very insulting the way you put it :(" China is a country that only liberalized and allowed capitalism a few decades ago. It has started from communist rule down a path to where now it is a world manufacturing powerhouse. It is not an insult to say that in doing so, Chinese manufacturers learned a lot, and that Apple…

Ah k. If indeed you mean that this situation eventually leads to pressure for something like more beneficial labor laws/practices, then I'm 100% with you. Sorry for the confusion there.

Re: While Apple Is Criticized for Foxconn, Other Companies Are Silent

#88

Post by usaar333 »

xenophanes wrote: post #14
theoj wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> [Foxconn provides] a safer workplace than the average US manufacturer Would really love to see some data that backs up that assertion.

I got it from https://twitter.com/#!/nicepaul/status/163797296306331648/ph... which gives a data source and is linked from http://go.bloomberg.com/tech-blog/2012-03-20-now-can-we-star...

>> [Foxconn provides] a safer workplace than the average US manufacturer

The data doesn't show that at all. It is at best safer than the average US workplace. The average is skewed by these dangerous jobs: http://www.forbes.com/2008/08/25/dangerous-jobs-fishing-lead...

Also I really hope any company has a lower suicide rate than the national average people employed after all tend to be happier than those who aren't

Re: While Apple Is Criticized for Foxconn, Other Companies Are Silent

#89

Post by [deleted] »

ktizo wrote: post #62
xal wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no horse in this race but It's very well known that Apple does indeed pick who bids lowest but: * They put severe requirements on the quality of the produce * They put severe requirements on secrecy * The they put severe requirements on how the workforce needs to be treated All of the above are enforced. Apple has massive teeth. They are king makers of the industry and drop suppliers like a hat for any offence…

"They are king makers of the industry and drop suppliers like a hat for any offences." No they don't; "The FLA investigation, released late last week, resulted in the questioning of 35,000 Foxconn workers across the Chengdu, Longhua and Guanlan factories and found average hours worked per week were 56, compared to the legal Chinese limit of 49 hours, which includes overtime." http://www.crn.com.au/News/295713,apple-a…

[deleted]

Re: While Apple Is Criticized for Foxconn, Other Companies Are Silent

#90

Post by rbarooah »

tatsuke95 wrote: post #64
rbarooah wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't say it wasn't working. I just think don't think it's helpful to claim it's the best way. [edit: one reason I think it's unhelpful is that it legitimizes misleading reporting, which is itself a great harm]

I'll concede that "proven to be the best" was probably too strong a claim. Proven to be sufficient at achieving the goal, then.

I agree that it's achieving the goal of pushing Apple to improve working conditions although given that they started their improvement program in 2006, it's highly debatable whether the recent outrage has achieved anything that wasn't already happening.

It remains to be seen whether this will have any effect on other manufacturers.

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