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Berlin's famed nightclubs, losing customers, face an uncertain future

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Re: Berlin's famed nightclubs, losing customers, face an uncertain future

#251

Post by dartharva »

bowsamic wrote: post #240
dartharva wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bet an exactly similar kind of oversimplified, nitpicking rant must have been made for the punk culture of your time by your elders, and the same for them, ad infinitum. There seems to be a psycho-social aspect to these generational agitations, whatever new thing the young ones bring will always be seen in the worst possible way by their elders in every generation.

You can use this to argue against literally any new social problem. Sometimes it is actually true that the newer generations are doing something wrong, you know?

So you say...

Re: Berlin's famed nightclubs, losing customers, face an uncertain future

#252

Post by friendzis »

hackernewds wrote: post #32
RamblingCTO wrote: post #2

You also have tik tok ravers. A generation which built their own culture in isolation in the pandemic now flooding the dance floors not knowing anything about techno culture. For me it's a big part of not wanting to go anywhere anymore. Before, your outfit didn't matter, phones, photos and videos were discouraged. Nowadays these kids dress to impress and point there phones everywhere. They consume the techno culture…

This rings of "get off m'lawn" vibes. As a gen Z myself, I question what's wrong with "tiktok ravers" wanting to dress up and enjoy music? The whole genre will fade away if it doesn't curate to the next generation, as the originals get too creaky to dance.

The core problem with "bring camera to venue" and subsequently "tiktok ravers" is inversion of relationship between the crowd and event. Before mass media you went to e.g. theatrical play or cinema to passively consume "content", whereas all the festivals were in large part made by partygoers. The more niche the rave, the more of the atmosphere is/was created by the attendees. The job of a DJ in a rave was largely to control the rhythm and the flow.

Partygoers with cameras reduce this relationship to simple consumerism, largely consumption of content. The more passive attendees there are, the larger the pressure is on the venue to make or break the party. Tiktok ravers are just more egregious iteration of the thing.

Re: Berlin's famed nightclubs, losing customers, face an uncertain future

#253

Post by shiroiuma »

satvikpendem wrote: post #227
ahartmetz wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's an exclusive techno club considered by many to be the best in the world. Being exclusive is really against the ethos of techno in Berlin. The "exclusivity" at the door is usually about achieving a fun mix of people and keeping out the ones who cannot behave. As an occasional clubber in Berlin, these "best" things are ridiculous. The "best" kebab place with the long queue is nothing special at all, and Berghain…

I've noticed this too about things deemed "the best." They often are susceptible to diminishing returns. For example, I go to a lot of Michelin-starred restaurants, but many of them are really not much better than I could make at home. Sure, they may have more exclusive ingredients, but the raw flavor potential is not significantly increased in Michelin-starred restaurants versus those outside of that group.

If you're not that impressed by Michelin-starred restaurants, why do you go?

As for how restaurants compare to making food at home, I don't think almost any restaurant can do better than a good chef at home. Someone at home can concentrate on making a top-quality meal for one or two people (maybe a couple more at the most), and doesn't have any real time pressures, or needing to share kitchen resources with meals made for dozens of other customers. It's pretty much the ideal environment for cooking, assuming 1) the equipment available is good and 2) the chef is skilled enough. Of course, #2 is a big one, so while some people who are confident in their cooking skills can claim "I can cook better meals than most Michelin-starred restaurants!", lots of other people can't cook meals that require more skill than "put in microwave for 4 minutes" so most restaurants can easily beat that.

Re: Berlin's famed nightclubs, losing customers, face an uncertain future

#254

Post by shiroiuma »

pezezin wrote: post #225
kodapoda wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need to know how to look and set the right expectations if you want to experience the most highly regarded techno club in the world. If you show up there with a group of drunk mates wearing sweatshirts or office attire - don't expect to be admitted. It's not that hard really, exclusive places have special rules.

> If you show up there with a group of drunk mates wearing sweatshirts or office attire - don't expect to be admitted. Why not? I was at a heavy metal concert in Shibuya last May, and the place was full of 50-something guys in full office suits. It was a Monday, so I guess they just finished work and went directly to the concert. It was quite amusing to be honest...

You're comparing apples and oranges. A metal concert isn't an exclusive club; anyone can buy a ticket and go. And yes, most salarymen in Tokyo wear office suits every day, so since it was on a Monday, they just didn't bother bringing a change of clothes. I see men in such suits all the time on weekdays doing whatever, because those are their work clothes.

It's unfortunate that the rock and metal crowd is mostly middle-aged people these days; the young people seem to be listening to rather bland pop music, idol music, etc.

Re: Berlin's famed nightclubs, losing customers, face an uncertain future

#255

Post by satvikpendem »

shiroiuma wrote: post #253
satvikpendem wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've noticed this too about things deemed "the best." They often are susceptible to diminishing returns. For example, I go to a lot of Michelin-starred restaurants, but many of them are really not much better than I could make at home. Sure, they may have more exclusive ingredients, but the raw flavor potential is not significantly increased in Michelin-starred restaurants versus those outside of that group.

If you're not that impressed by Michelin-starred restaurants, why do you go? As for how restaurants compare to making food at home, I don't think almost any restaurant can do better than a good chef at home. Someone at home can concentrate on making a top-quality meal for one or two people (maybe a couple more at the most), and doesn't have any real time pressures, or needing to share kitchen resources with meals mad…

I go because there is always something new to discover, in the way they cook, plate, and serve their foods, which I then use in my own cooking. Plus, I am hoping that one of them at least will impress me someday. As for home cooking, I agree with you, but oftentimes even other restaurants can beat Michelin-starred restaurants on flavor, so it's not just skilled home cooks. I view Michelin-starred restaurants as one would view high fashion and their shows, pieces of sensory art rather than pedestrian fare.

Re: Berlin's famed nightclubs, losing customers, face an uncertain future

#256

Post by omar_alt »

Like London there might also be a diminishing demand from under 25 year old young adults wanting to go to nightclubs in Berlin. A taxi driver told me for weekends he would work a mile radius picking up people to and from Fabric nightclub, now the demand has tailed off considerably.

If young people are not compelled to go to clubs these venues they might have to wait out for the next generation and a potential culture change.

Re: Berlin's famed nightclubs, losing customers, face an uncertain future

#257

Post by idra »

twixfel wrote: post #182
idra wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Incredibly thankful for Berlin bouncers for doing their job properly, and not letting people in who think that as long as they "give money" everything should spread open for them, and who don't even bother to know what the main theme and focus on the event (who's DJing). Exactly the kind of people I'd like to avoid when partying in a techno club.

Very difficult to imagine you would notice in the middle of a night club who around you does and doesn't know the lineup for the night. Amusing to think about, though. Next time try to enjoy the music and don't worry so much about what other people around you are up to!

I can enjoy music at home or at any private space. One of the main ideas behind clubbing is to enjoy the music in a community of like-minded people and fostering that sense of connection and belonging.

In the past it would occur naturally, because electronic music was a niche thing. With raising popularity, door policies had to be implemented to maintain this community. Now that it's mainstream, clueless outsiders start coming in telling people who built the scene what to do.

Quite similar to what happened to tech and the Internet in fact. The club scene is in its Eternal September now.

Re: Berlin's famed nightclubs, losing customers, face an uncertain future

#258

Post by bowsamic »

dartharva wrote: post #251
bowsamic wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can use this to argue against literally any new social problem. Sometimes it is actually true that the newer generations are doing something wrong, you know?

So you say...

So are you going to go all the way with your reasoning and claim that there has never been an actual social problem ever?

Re: Berlin's famed nightclubs, losing customers, face an uncertain future

#259

Post by nsbk »

kodapoda wrote: post #152
shiroiuma wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This might be true for very few very selective clubs like Berghain, certainly not true for all Berlin clubs. Perhaps, but it seems that those "selective" clubs have given a bad reputation to all clubs.

Berlin clubs are a scene, it's highly recommended to do prep work before going out. Personally, I would love for these clubs to be more accessible, but understand that Berghain has a very specific reputation that it works hard to maintain. It's an exclusive techno club considered by many to be the best in the world.

Anecdotal, but I have a 100% hit ratio at Berghain and have never done any kind of prep work. Most of the times bh was not even part of the plan and we would just show up there, sometimes still with the backpack from work, laptops and all. Maybe two or three of us, sometimes on my own. I think it sucks that so many people are rejected at the door, but the approach clearly works once you get inside and feel the vibe.

I was rejected at Kater Blau once though, for who knows what reason. It's the way it works, if you get bumped you can get angry at the system or just forget your ego and go elsewhere and enjoy the night.

Re: Berlin's famed nightclubs, losing customers, face an uncertain future

#260

Post by vidarh »

kristopolous wrote: post #231
vidarh wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of the people you're arguing with here have been defending exclusion based on discrimination of the kind you're objecting to, so it's then unclear why you're making this argument. The specific comment you replied to that I replied to did not argue for the kind of discrimination you're talking about here either. I'm absolutely sure that the kind of discrimination you're talking about is also an issue with quite a…

Sure but consequences come from systems, structures, and institutions and not from intentions. You can tell me it's some vibe check but it's structurally set up to discriminate based on classic markers and there's been intentionally zero remediations to avoid it. In fact, many reports of xenophobia, antisemitism and racism persist, just Google it, it's everywhere. That's why we had to fundamentally re-form our instit…

Then attack the lack of remediation, and the lack of more objective criteria, not the notion that there are criteria for participation in all kinds of communities including in most of the ones you used as examples of inclusive ones.

> That's why we had to fundamentally re-form our institutions in the US in the name of inclusion and not just have better intentions.

Are you suggesting that worked?

> But let's call a spade a spade and not pretend it magically turns to something else based on wishes and dreams.

The problem is that you appear to call a spade something else entirely, and attack a position nobody has taken. I note that you have expanded on specific issues and pointed out another club that has specific policies that can be easily conformed to elsewhere, and that was a much more productive line of argument to take.

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