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Berlin's famed nightclubs, losing customers, face an uncertain future

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Re: Berlin's famed nightclubs, losing customers, face an uncertain future

#231

Post by kristopolous »

vidarh wrote: post #224
kristopolous wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exclusion based on contribution is different than exclusion based on discrimination. It's a very important difference. If I, just some random dude, submitted a correct mathematical paper solving a millennium or Hilbert puzzle to a prestigious journal, for instance, they would publish it regardless of the fact that I'm not so and so from Princeton. They wouldn't exclude my valued contribution. Discrimination would be…

None of the people you're arguing with here have been defending exclusion based on discrimination of the kind you're objecting to, so it's then unclear why you're making this argument. The specific comment you replied to that I replied to did not argue for the kind of discrimination you're talking about here either. I'm absolutely sure that the kind of discrimination you're talking about is also an issue with quite a…

Sure but consequences come from systems, structures, and institutions and not from intentions.

You can tell me it's some vibe check but it's structurally set up to discriminate based on classic markers and there's been intentionally zero remediations to avoid it.

In fact, many reports of xenophobia, antisemitism and racism persist, just Google it, it's everywhere.

That's why we had to fundamentally re-form our institutions in the US in the name of inclusion and not just have better intentions.

Berghain and Tresor can to whatever the fuck they want, I don't care. But let's call a spade a spade and not pretend it magically turns to something else based on wishes and dreams.

Re: Berlin's famed nightclubs, losing customers, face an uncertain future

#232

Post by beanjuice »

flaviolivolsi wrote: post #213
danielfoster wrote: post #10

I’m not sure what sort of decline the article is referring to. There’s not a single reference to revenues or guest count for any club in Berlin, nor mention of any specific club in danger of closing due to lack of patronage. These clubs were great while the city was struggling, but now that it’s not, I can see why people don’t wish to tolerate the negative externalities associated with them. Hopefully most clubs can…

Fortunately a 40 euro entrance fee is something you don't see yet in Berlin

Only 25....

Re: Berlin's famed nightclubs, losing customers, face an uncertain future

#233

Post by bowsamic »

If you follow the subreddit /r/Berghain_Community it has become clear that there is something wrong with Berghain.

People constantly discussing being molested, being shamed for openly expressing themselves, etc. The vibes are off now. It's very interesting as a casual observer, but I imagine it's extremely sad for those who were dependent on it.

I've also heard way too many GHB horror stories recently.

Re: Berlin's famed nightclubs, losing customers, face an uncertain future

#234

Post by _the_inflator »

I feel totally sorry for every club. People invested a lot of work to keep things going.

On the grand scheme, this is pretty normal in Berlin and to every club scene. Pretty much every club I raved in during Berlin's techno heydays in the 90th has been closed or demolished, same goes for Frankfurt (Dorian Gray, Omen, XS, Easy, Oxo, Fun, Paramount Park, only Palazzo is somewhat still there). Even Loveparade "died", Mayday is still alive, but the theme has changed.

The mentioned Tik Tok ravers where previously known as "BRAVO ravers". Veterans from Germany will understand the reference.

Times are changing, so are clubs. Every generation bemoans the loss of its heritage. So maybe this is the essence: every generation has to take care of their club landscape.

And maybe sounding a bit arrogant, if you consider these days club scene "famed", then the anarchic club scene from the 90th must be considered a world heritage for comparison, since they set the trends for all generations to follow in a much larger picture.

Greetings to the 90th. ;)

Re: Berlin's famed nightclubs, losing customers, face an uncertain future

#235

Post by gpjanik »

flaviolivolsi wrote: post #213
danielfoster wrote: post #10

I’m not sure what sort of decline the article is referring to. There’s not a single reference to revenues or guest count for any club in Berlin, nor mention of any specific club in danger of closing due to lack of patronage. These clubs were great while the city was struggling, but now that it’s not, I can see why people don’t wish to tolerate the negative externalities associated with them. Hopefully most clubs can…

Fortunately a 40 euro entrance fee is something you don't see yet in Berlin

You do, pretty often.

Re: Berlin's famed nightclubs, losing customers, face an uncertain future

#236

Post by watwut »

vinckr wrote: post #87
squillion wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. The truth is that those clubs are more elitist than the opera house.

Not true. Only the most famous ones are that selective and the opera is still many times more expensive - plus you actually need a certain dresscode at the opera.

Opera can be pretty cheap, actually. And you can show up dressed badly and wont be turned away. Some people will look at you sideways, but no one will tell you anything.

Re: Berlin's famed nightclubs, losing customers, face an uncertain future

#237

Post by mikosty »

pdntspa wrote: post #176
jliptzin wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea, 3 hour lines, and then they obnoxiously don’t let you in anyway, for no obvious reason. Not shedding any tears here.

The most likely reason is that you give off tourist vibes. My Berliner friend told me as such when I came to visit, we hit up some thrift shops so I could get some local threads and 'blend in' In fact, when I got in one club a very cute german girl tried to talk to me on the dancefloor. But I didn't speak any German and she got angry, shouting "aaauuggh!! tourists!!!" Also, for the clubs that forbid alcohol (hard dru…

As a regular Berlin visitor I have never heard of a club that "forbids alcohol" let alone encourage illicit drug usage. It's actually quite the opposite – the clubs tend to actively discourage drug use (meaning searching for them at the door and kicking out everyone who is caught using).

Re: Berlin's famed nightclubs, losing customers, face an uncertain future

#238

Post by uoaei »

dartharva wrote: post #166
RamblingCTO wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't care. Before, people would look out for each other and treat everyone with respect, regardless of clothing and style. Tik Tok ravers tend do to the opposite. Let people die on the fucking curb, being an asshat, just go to raves to take all drugs at once. I'm no the only one who thinks that way. This is a very big debate, especially in Germany. So what's wrong with tik tok ravers? They bring their fucking cons…

I bet an exactly similar kind of oversimplified, nitpicking rant must have been made for the punk culture of your time by your elders, and the same for them, ad infinitum. There seems to be a psycho-social aspect to these generational agitations, whatever new thing the young ones bring will always be seen in the worst possible way by their elders in every generation.

FWIW I was at a punk/metal show this weekend and the crowd skewed younger and it kinda sucked. No one seemed to be enjoying themselves. It felt like they just wanted to be seen there. My friend commented that it felt like church which was hilarious considering the setting (and accurate).

Hardcore shows at squats still live on though, and people are there to enjoy for sure. But that's because if you don't like the music and setting you would leave pretty quickly.

I tend to think this kind of self-filtering system is more effective than bouncers at the door, but at the same time, consumers be consumin, and they glom onto faddy subcultures just long enough to completely hollow them out. There's arguments to be made for curating the spaces that art resides and thrives in.

Re: Berlin's famed nightclubs, losing customers, face an uncertain future

#239

Post by bowsamic »

xfeeefeee wrote: post #115
RamblingCTO wrote: post #2

You also have tik tok ravers. A generation which built their own culture in isolation in the pandemic now flooding the dance floors not knowing anything about techno culture. For me it's a big part of not wanting to go anywhere anymore. Before, your outfit didn't matter, phones, photos and videos were discouraged. Nowadays these kids dress to impress and point there phones everywhere. They consume the techno culture…

I've been going to raves and festivals since the 90s and the current culture is great! I mean yeah it's different but still pretty much the same. Reading some of the anecdotes here I can't help but think that people are glossing over the same issues in the past. And yeah it is true that DJs have become a centerpiece rather than someone behind the scenes... but the experience itself has evolved with amazing visual per…

> There is a huge difference as well for lgbtq people at these places, the inclusivity has dramatically improved.

That is the total opposite to what is happening in German clubs

Re: Berlin's famed nightclubs, losing customers, face an uncertain future

#240

Post by bowsamic »

dartharva wrote: post #166
RamblingCTO wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't care. Before, people would look out for each other and treat everyone with respect, regardless of clothing and style. Tik Tok ravers tend do to the opposite. Let people die on the fucking curb, being an asshat, just go to raves to take all drugs at once. I'm no the only one who thinks that way. This is a very big debate, especially in Germany. So what's wrong with tik tok ravers? They bring their fucking cons…

I bet an exactly similar kind of oversimplified, nitpicking rant must have been made for the punk culture of your time by your elders, and the same for them, ad infinitum. There seems to be a psycho-social aspect to these generational agitations, whatever new thing the young ones bring will always be seen in the worst possible way by their elders in every generation.

You can use this to argue against literally any new social problem. Sometimes it is actually true that the newer generations are doing something wrong, you know?
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