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Intel 80386, a Revolutionary CPU

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Re: Intel 80386, a Revolutionary CPU

#41
Interestingly, I've never owned a 386. I was not much of a DOS/Win PC person until 1994, when I got a 486 to run NEXTSTEP. I've had an i8088, NEC V20, i80286, i80486, AMD 5x86, P4, and then on with the Mac starting in 2006 with (well, just before) Intel Core microarch. In those early days I was more Amiga, ST, etc. ( https://bytecellar.com/the-list/ )

I felt more spiritually connected to the MC68K line back when, for lack of a better term.

Amusingly the i386 system I spent the most time with was in college in 1993/4 on a Sun 386 tower running SunOS or Solaris in the APCS lab.

Re: Intel 80386, a Revolutionary CPU

#42

They were in big trouble then. The entire company was riding on it being great. It could have easily gone awry as it did for Data General, Honeywell, CDC, AST, Tandy, Olivetti, Xerox, DEC Rainbow, AT&T Hobbit, Wang 2200 and Unisys. Strong survivorship bias on this one. Most of the once Titans are in or near the dustbin now, such as SDS, SDC and Fairchild. Intel's history was primarily as a memory manufacturer. They'r…

> and getting slaughtered in their only remaining stronghold by NVIDIA, AMD and ARM pillaging their castle NVIDIA doesn't make good CPUs, even their SoCs are ... not exactly state of the art. No mass market adoption besides automotive who don't care about anything but long availability of (spare) parts and the Nintendo Switch which likely only still uses the same 2015-era Tegra chipset because even someone as big as…

> there are outside of the Mac world no viable ARM desktop or laptop CPUs because Qualcomm completely fucked up that market for likely years to come

Huh citation needed? I would like to know more context on that

Re: Intel 80386, a Revolutionary CPU

#43
Nice write-up. Re-reading about the evolution and complexity of x86 makes me wonder about attempts to modernize x86. Does anyone know how Intel’s x86-S proposal to do a cleaned-up 64-bit architecture has been received? I looked for updates in the media but haven’t been able to find anything.

Re: Intel 80386, a Revolutionary CPU

#44
I think the 80386's final design benefitted tremendously from the Motorola 68000, then the m68020. Had Motorola not released a proper 32 bit CPU without compromises, it could be argued that Intel would've had yet another stop-gap after the 80286, which itself wasn't intended to be a proper successor to the 8086/8088.

As it is, the 80386 came with a number of compromises. For instance, there was no cache at all beyond a 16 byte instruction prefetch queue, whereas the m68020 had 256 bytes of instruction cache. There were no atomic instructions (LOCK wasn't useful for this), which is why many modern OSes support the 80486 but not the 80386. The fact that compatibility with the 8086 required real mode or VM86 meant that it took quite a long time before software started taking advantage of the 80386's new features.

It was an important chip, but it showed us early signs of what we've come to expect from Intel: attempts to create other markets at the expense of, or with the express desire to not compete with, the x86 (the iAPX 432 then, the Itanic twenty years later), the slapdash addition of "features", such as the additions to the 80286, which then were required to be included forevermore as legacy support, the rushing-to-catch-up when other vendors had features that everyone wanted (real, flat 32 bit support then, 64 bit support twenty years later).

Still, it's interesting history!

Re: Intel 80386, a Revolutionary CPU

#45
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s their hope right now? Some sort of Quark-derived desktop CPU à la Dothan?

Coming out with better chips at lower prices. I know how obvious that sounds but it's true. The difficulty is they need to make nearly decade-long bets that are the size of small countries economies due to the complexity of manufacturing and Intel's made a few bad ones recently. I don't know who to listen to on what chip design will be a market win in 2030 either. AI applications are extremely resource intensive so t…

Isn’t AI usually highly memory-bandwidth constrained? Designing a new powerful AI chip to rely on slow memory probably isn’t the best strategy.

Re: Intel 80386, a Revolutionary CPU

#46
post #7
post #2

How different are the instruction sets of the 80486 and Pentium from the 386? Put another way, had the instruction set been frozen as of the 386 (barring any required changes for 64-bit), would we notice any difference in performance today?

80486 and Pentium added relatively few instructions to the core instruction set, but there are a couple of pretty important tools which got added. The ones you'd miss the most would probably be: * CMPXCHG (486). Central to multiprocessor synchronization and locking. * CPUID (P6). Admittedly, if the instruction set were frozen you wouldn't need this... but if not, it's how you detect what CPU you're running on and wha…

[deleted]

Re: Intel 80386, a Revolutionary CPU

#47

I think the 80386's final design benefitted tremendously from the Motorola 68000, then the m68020. Had Motorola not released a proper 32 bit CPU without compromises, it could be argued that Intel would've had yet another stop-gap after the 80286, which itself wasn't intended to be a proper successor to the 8086/8088. As it is, the 80386 came with a number of compromises. For instance, there was no cache at all beyond…

It was a 386 that Linus Torvalds wrote the first Linux kernel on, and support for the new features of the 386 from the start was one of the reasons Linux took off instantly.

Re: Intel 80386, a Revolutionary CPU

#48

Interestingly, I've never owned a 386. I was not much of a DOS/Win PC person until 1994, when I got a 486 to run NEXTSTEP. I've had an i8088, NEC V20, i80286, i80486, AMD 5x86, P4, and then on with the Mac starting in 2006 with (well, just before) Intel Core microarch. In those early days I was more Amiga, ST, etc. ( https://bytecellar.com/the-list/ ) I felt more spiritually connected to the MC68K line back when, for…

While I got the 80386 programmers manual as one of my teen birthday presents.. I only ever actually did a little ASM programming but I loved that book anyway and read it a lot.

Really annoyed at myself that I got rid of in some fit of "well, I'll never use that again" cleaning some time.. especially given somehow still have "Sendmail, edition 2".

I might read the 386 book for nostalgia.. the Sendmail one..well, PTSD isn't something you get nostalgic about!

Re: Intel 80386, a Revolutionary CPU

#49

I think the 80386's final design benefitted tremendously from the Motorola 68000, then the m68020. Had Motorola not released a proper 32 bit CPU without compromises, it could be argued that Intel would've had yet another stop-gap after the 80286, which itself wasn't intended to be a proper successor to the 8086/8088. As it is, the 80386 came with a number of compromises. For instance, there was no cache at all beyond…

It was a 386 that Linus Torvalds wrote the first Linux kernel on, and support for the new features of the 386 from the start was one of the reasons Linux took off instantly.

Indeed! My first taste of Linux was Slackware on a 386

Re: Intel 80386, a Revolutionary CPU

#50
post #2

How different are the instruction sets of the 80486 and Pentium from the 386? Put another way, had the instruction set been frozen as of the 386 (barring any required changes for 64-bit), would we notice any difference in performance today?

Even besides new instructions the 486 and then Pentium ran existing x86 code faster than the 386 clock for clock. Various new instructions did add capability but just running existing code faster was a huge win on subsequent chips.

Yeah. Not many new instructions but many instructions required less cycles per instruction and the 486 also got way bigger caches. And the integrated FPU (IIRC the FPU was an add-on for the 386).

Switching from a 386 to a 486 was bringing a huge speedup back then.

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