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Why Cities: Skylines 2 performs poorly

blog.paavo.me

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Re: Why Cities: Skylines 2 performs poorly

#281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty playable on GeForce Now, for what it's worth. Still a big laggy, but I was able to play for many hours without major issues... just the occasionally annoying but livable stutter.

GeForce Now has been amazing as a mac only user

Yes because you have no other options.

Re: Why Cities: Skylines 2 performs poorly

#282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Microsoft has a similar problem where nobody gets promoted from fixing bugs or maintaining stuff, everyone gets rewarded for new innovative [thing] so every two-three years there's a completely new UI framework or similar. Is there any big (or even medium-sized) company where this isn't true? I feel like it's just a rule of corporate culture that flashy overpromising projects get you promoted and regularly doing im…

It's a matter of letting things degrade so that the maintenance becomes outright firefighting. I am currently working on a project where a processing pipeline has a maximum practical throughput of 1x, and a median day's for said pipeline is... 0.95x. So any outage becomes unrecoverable. Getting that project approved 6 month from now would have been basically impossible. Right now, it's valued at a promotion-level dif…

Yeah but if you had a release target of dec 15 and it crashed dec 1st and you could have brought it home by the 7th you would have been a bigger winner. Tragedy prevented is tragedy forgotten. No lessons were learned

Re: Why Cities: Skylines 2 performs poorly

#284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes one wonder what their internal employee incentives are and if they're problematic. Microsoft has a similar problem where nobody gets promoted from fixing bugs or maintaining stuff, everyone gets rewarded for new innovative [thing] so every two-three years there's a completely new UI framework or similar. Although I feel like wanting to start-a-new is a common tech problem, where there are problems and everyo…

> Microsoft has a similar problem where nobody gets promoted from fixing bugs or maintaining stuff, everyone gets rewarded for new innovative [thing] so every two-three years there's a completely new UI framework or similar. Is there any big (or even medium-sized) company where this isn't true? I feel like it's just a rule of corporate culture that flashy overpromising projects get you promoted and regularly doing im…

https://www.thepeoplespace.com/practice/articles/leadership-...

It’s very rare, this is one of the only places I can imagine something like that happening.

Re: Why Cities: Skylines 2 performs poorly

#285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that a number of other Unity-based games have had the same or similar performance issues, including KSP1, the Endless games, and others, it seems the problem is very much that Cities Skylines 2 is hitting up against the performance limits that the Unity engine is capable of without custom modifications to the engine-layer codebase.

I'll be really surprised if City Skylines's team didn't have access to Unity's source code.

And do they have the number of engineers with the required skills to rewrite half the engine? Especially if the reason why they developed using those tools and engine is they expected not to have to do it themselves in the first place?

It's not like there's just some "go_slow=true" constant that just needs changing.

Re: Why Cities: Skylines 2 performs poorly

#286
post #72

> A brief glance at the JS bundle reveals that they are using React and bundling using Webpack. While this is something that is guaranteed to make the average native development purist yell at clouds and complain that the darned kids should get off their lawn, When I first heard of this as being a thing, my initial reaction was indeed something like "wait what? HTML and CSS in a desktop PC game driving the UI? No, th…

I imagine lots of backend developers never really thought about what it actually takes to build complex, responsive, performant and visually appealing UIs and how the web platform just so happened to have matured for decades to make all of that as painless as possible. Last time I saw that reaction was someone learning about how SpaceX is using it for their flight controls in the Dragon capsule.

> I imagine lots of backend developers never really thought

There is a lot of snobbery and arrogance from "pure" backend developers who think JavaScript is some limited toy language. If it is not C++ or Rust or even Go (...assuming they are ok with the GC) then to them it is not worth wasting a milliseconds time on while they go off and fetishise over their copy semantics for their CRUD website backend.

Modern JavaScript is highly performant and the DX is second-to-none (unless you are using anything related to NPM). JavaScript and Typescript freed from the NPM nonsense is an absolute joy to work with.

I look forward to the inevitable dominance of JavaScript on the backend.

Re: Why Cities: Skylines 2 performs poorly

#287
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a classic victim of shitty, shitty software developers who blames tools rather than taking ownership. Or shitty software dev companies that push out crap to meet marketing deadlines. Either way, take your money elsewhere.

Given that a number of other Unity-based games have had the same or similar performance issues, including KSP1, the Endless games, and others, it seems the problem is very much that Cities Skylines 2 is hitting up against the performance limits that the Unity engine is capable of without custom modifications to the engine-layer codebase.

I have personally been responsible for optimizing unity games you haven't heard issues like this about ;)

This write-up really points the finger at not solving occlusion culling or having good LOD discipline.

Give a person a dedicated optimization mandate and you can avoid most of this. One of the first things I do when I'm profiling is to sort assets by tris count and scan for excess. I wonder if they had somebody go through and strategically disable shadowcasting on things like those teeth? I am guessing that they made optimization "everybody's responsibility" but nobody had it as their only responsibility.

Re: Why Cities: Skylines 2 performs poorly

#288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's honestly a bit insane. Just the other night I wanted to know what it'd take to do some AR development for the Quest 3 using Unity. 10 minutes in I was straight up confused. There's AR Foundation, AR Core, AR Kit, and I think at least one other thing. I have no idea the difference between those, if they're even wholly separate. That's on top of using either the OpenXR or Unity plugin for the actual headset.

AR Kit is Apple's thing. AR Core is Google's thing. Neither of those are Unity's fault. AR Foundation is a Unity layer to present a common interface. Which of my books is a good thing. Open XR is also an an attempt to make a cross platform layer for vendor specific APIs. Again not Unity's fault. The Unity plugin system is a common interface for all XR devices. I'd generally support your sentiment but in this case you…

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Re: Why Cities: Skylines 2 performs poorly

#289
post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a huge misrepresentation of what happened to SimCity. EA released a incredibly user-hostile version of SimCity (always online, microtransations and more) that almost no one liked, and Cities: Skylines was released around that time too.

I bought both when they came out, and the user hostile stuff didn't bother me at all. What killed sim city was most definitely the performance issues. Unless they had a better reason for restricting the maximum city size. And then the fact that skylines had both a larger play area and more fancy city building features was just the killing blow. EA got caught out, thinking they could leisurely bring out an inferior pr…

> I bought both when they came out, and the user hostile stuff didn't bother me at all.

“You" and “users generally” are different things.

Re: Why Cities: Skylines 2 performs poorly

#290

100,000 vertices for a pile of logs and 10,000 for teeth inside a characters head is hilarious. It blows me away how bad everyone is at their jobs. Imagine spending all day working on something and then you just make it garbage.

Lmao. This is often how everything seems from the outside, but the inside story is something else. Probably just too much work, not enough time.
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