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Why Cities: Skylines 2 performs poorly

blog.paavo.me

171–180 of 593 posts

Re: Why Cities: Skylines 2 performs poorly

#171
post #63

The odd thing is I doubt a single sky line fan thought “what this really needs is graphics so intensive I can’t build a big city” It’s remarkably tone deaf

No, we can have both things. Graphics are incredibly important to a game, especially for a simulator like this, it really helps with the immersion. It’s as important as gameplay.

> It’s as important as gameplay.

Important certainly but colour me unconvinced on equally important. If the game play isn’t fun on a simulator then it isn’t much of a game.

People still play chess despite terrible graphics

Re: Why Cities: Skylines 2 performs poorly

#172
post #63

The odd thing is I doubt a single sky line fan thought “what this really needs is graphics so intensive I can’t build a big city” It’s remarkably tone deaf

I also doubt any of the developers were aiming for that too. I've been looking through the decompiled code for the purposes of modding for the last few days, wrapping my head around their ECS/DOTS code, and the game has a much better foundation for a scalable simulation than CS1 ever had, even after years of optimizations.

That’s cool. Didn’t realise modders still do that sort of low level stuff

Re: Why Cities: Skylines 2 performs poorly

#173
The whole industry seems in need of a major reset event (aka true competition).

We wasted a LOT of innovation tokens on VR, ray tracing, battle royales, etc. The availability of OSS and COTS engines has been an uplift on paper, but brought with it an entire new universe of downsides with regard to actual player experiences.

For better or worse, I believe that a higher barrier to entry is a good thing for a major creative effort like a video game or feature length film. Both of these typically require involving more than 1 human in a deep, passionate way. You really want to make sure you have the right vision & people or it's going to turn out shit.

Would you rather have 30 kinda meh games you can play for ~20-50 hours each, or 2 super incredible games that have endless replay value? At a certain point, the value proposition goes discontinuous with this form of entertainment. In my view, you should always seek this criticality and consider how severe the economics are if you fail to reach it. You can't necessarily plan to build something that will last as long as WoW from the beginning, but you can certainly ask yourselves "is this still fun to play?" on a daily basis.

I'm not saying we go back to the abacus, but there is a price to be paid for the level of abstraction we are operating with today. You stop thinking about things and they leak into the player feel. When you are working on top of a physics engine that you separately tuned for 1000 hours under extreme duress, you know exactly when something isn't quite right and can do something about it immediately. Every COTS engine is a very leaky abstraction that turns into a titanic disaster the moment you desire things like bespoke multiplayer or platform functionality.

I also think there is a vertical ownership crisis in the industry. When you have all of your assets being produced in a separate silo, you should expect a very manufactured look & feel when they are combined with the rest of the product. Less content would probably feel like a lot more if we'd slow down a bit and re-integrate the artists, developers, testers, etc. under fewer hats.

Re: Why Cities: Skylines 2 performs poorly

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Pay peanuts get monkeys" is a proverb. > Make people work 12 hour days to ship before you go out of business and corners will need to get cut. Won't happen. The US barely has any employment laws, and so do many other countries of the world.

What won't happen?

As long as the government doesn't ban employing people for 12 hours and more straight for weeks, and actually enforces that ban, there will always be enough employers doing so, and enough people willing to go through with it "for the credits".

Re: Why Cities: Skylines 2 performs poorly

#175

> Quite a few YouTubers and streamers got early access to the game, but they were explicitly forbidden to talk about performance until the regular review embargo was lifted. This, along with games like Alan Wake 2 getting phenomenal reviews in the face of terrible performance and game breaking bugs, makes me wonder why folks trust the current corrupt review system, of which streamers are now part of too.

> makes me wonder why folks trust the current corrupt review system, of which streamers are now part of too. Agreed. There's such a whole world of unreported 'sponsored' or otherwise products, and streaming is a big part of it. And no-one is immune. When the cheesegrater Mac Pro came out, I watched a lot of videos on it, particularly on YouTube in the photo/video segment - I was planning to get one, and while I had o…

And it gets worse the smaller the market is: There is a chance that a youtuber with sufficiently large following could actually choose to buy said mac pro, because their revenue might be pretty large. But then you look at, say, boardgame reviews. Nobody, ever, buys a game. But the number of views isn't good enough to dedicate the time to it as anything other than a hobby. Thus, anyone posting enough that they make it their job is also getting sponsored on top of the free product, but nobody wants to tell you that. Thus, all you are seeing is 100% ad, just shaped as a review, or as entertainment.

Re: Why Cities: Skylines 2 performs poorly

#176
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm enjoying it too. It's fairly similar to the previous one, and have encountered a few simulation bugs, but I'm happy with it. I'm able to run it okay at 4K.

If I played the old one and enjoyed it, what's the pitch for the new one? e.g. why is it better? On the surface it kinda just looks like the previous one, but I haven't dug into it

I've played a lot of CS1 (and recently, lots of CS2), here are the biggest improvements for me:

- The simulation is much deeper than before, not basically just statistics on a page

- The game plays slightly harder, more management needed in order to have a proper budget. But like in the first, that disappears once you have 100/200K citizens, as it's hard to fuck up the budget at that stage.

- The control of roads is a lot better, compared to vanilla CS1. Nowhere near modded CS1, but it'll easily get there with some time, the foundation of CS2 is a lot stronger and easier to extend

- Able to build bigger cities will less lag compared to CS1. I'm sure this will improve even more in the future. Going ECS I'm sure made a huge difference in simulation performance.

Re: Why Cities: Skylines 2 performs poorly

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes one wonder what their internal employee incentives are and if they're problematic. Microsoft has a similar problem where nobody gets promoted from fixing bugs or maintaining stuff, everyone gets rewarded for new innovative [thing] so every two-three years there's a completely new UI framework or similar. Although I feel like wanting to start-a-new is a common tech problem, where there are problems and everyo…

> Microsoft has a similar problem where nobody gets promoted from fixing bugs or maintaining stuff, everyone gets rewarded for new innovative [thing] so every two-three years there's a completely new UI framework or similar. Is there any big (or even medium-sized) company where this isn't true? I feel like it's just a rule of corporate culture that flashy overpromising projects get you promoted and regularly doing im…

I spent a few weeks migrating and then fixing a bunch of bugs in 20-year old Perl codebase (cyber security had their sights set on it). Basically used by a huge amount of people to record data for all kinds of processes at work.

Original developer is long gone. Me and another guy are two of the only people (we aren't a tech company) who can re-learn Perl, upgrade multiple versions of Linux/Apache/MySQL, make everything else work like Kerberos etc...

Or maybe I'm one of the only people dumb enough to take it on.

Either way, nobody will get so much as an attaboy at the next department meeting. But, they'll know who to go to the next time some other project is resurrected from the depths of hell and needs to be brought up to date.

Re: Why Cities: Skylines 2 performs poorly

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Microsoft has a similar problem where nobody gets promoted from fixing bugs or maintaining stuff, everyone gets rewarded for new innovative [thing] so every two-three years there's a completely new UI framework or similar. Is there any big (or even medium-sized) company where this isn't true? I feel like it's just a rule of corporate culture that flashy overpromising projects get you promoted and regularly doing im…

I think it is a bit tricky to get the incentives right ( since the bookkeeping people like to quantize everything). If you reward finding and fixing bugs too much - you might push developers to write more sloppy code in the first place. Because then those who loudly fix their own written mess gets promoted - and those who quietly write solid code gets overlooked.

Goodhart’s law at work, or “why you shouldn’t force information workers to chase after arbitrary metrics”. Basecamp has been famously just letting people do good work, on their terms, without KPIs.

I will preemptively agree that this isn’t possible everywhere; but if you create a good work environment where people don’t feel like puppets executing the PM’s vision, they might actually care and want to do a solid day’s work (which we’re wired for).

Re: Why Cities: Skylines 2 performs poorly

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As scope increases all the organizational challenges balloon. Coordinating 10 people is much easier than several hundred. It's the same almost regardless of domain. What happens if your core game loop still is no fun, but you got 100 people rolling off a previous project and ready for the next phase of this new project to get to where you need them to start design levels and assets? It's much easier to fix if the add…

it's not like game studios have increased in size, it's just more bloat. look at old games' credits, you'll find maybe even bigger studios (making art and programming with limited hardware was much more time-consuming....) but they had good gameplay on a much smaller budget. Today, studios waste money on analytics, governance things and other fluff... Best case study is Mojang, the company has over 800 employees but…

> it's not like game studios have increased in size, it's just more bloat

Are you serious? Teams have increased massively. Super Mario Kart for example had less than 20 people working on it. That's not even the size of the audio department for many modern AAA games

Re: Why Cities: Skylines 2 performs poorly

#180

I spent 40 minutes trying to eke out more than a handful of fps on an empty map with the resolution set at 1080p with Proton Experimental. I gave up and got a refund, I'll try again if they fix the awful performance. I got a tremendous amount of enjoyment out of the first instalment of the game, it's a big bummer that I can't give this one a go

It's pretty playable on GeForce Now, for what it's worth. Still a big laggy, but I was able to play for many hours without major issues... just the occasionally annoying but livable stutter.

GeForce Now has been amazing as a mac only user
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