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Monsters of the Road: What Should the UK Do About SUVs?

theguardian.com

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Re: Monsters of the Road: What Should the UK Do About SUVs?

#161
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you deal with the small boot space? Have you taken off the boot's floor and the polystyrene foam underneath it?

Dunno, we never felt the need to damage the car to get some more space :-) It just doesn't make sense to use a jumbo jet to get around Kent.

No damage needed, there's like 2x the boot space if you remove the floor plate that has the spare wheel space under it with some polystyrene filling to hold the tools in place. You can put them back again later. Maybe yours has the battery there? We have the petrol only model. I always thought the boot space was too small, as we always seem to fill it up.

Oh and it's not a SUV, it's a crossover. A pretty low one as well, it's quite confortable on the highway.

Re: Monsters of the Road: What Should the UK Do About SUVs?

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They exist for a reason. Some people have more to haul than just groceries. What in daily life is different in the last ~20 years (when SUVs have grown popular), compared to the ~20 years before that (when minivans were a thing), compared to the ~20 years before that (when station wagons were a thing)? Further, how often is the 'extra' hauling occurring? Why do you need to drive such a thing daily when the haulage…

Minivans are not small, if you have problems with the SUV size then why is a minivan suddenly okay? It's the same size car with a differently styled body and without towing capacity. E.g. Toyota Sienna is the same width and length as BMW X7 and less than 4" shorter in height. And Chrysler Pacifica is longer and wider than either of these (also less than 3" shorter in height than X7). And X7 is a big SUV that I rarely…

> Minivans are not small, if you have problems with the SUV size then why is a minivan suddenly okay?

Forward visibility for one. There's a meme going around that even main battle tanks (and semi rigs) have better forward visibility than some pick-ups trucks:

* https://carbuzz.com/news/the-abrams-m1-tank-has-better-visib...

And for all that external size, how much internal storage space do you get in a large SUV like the X7? If SUVs are allegedly for carrying stuff, how much stuff can you get in (with and without folding down seats)? How easy is it for people (esp. adults, and not just children) to get back to the third row, and how comfortable is it back there for them?

> Toyota RAV4

Now we're talking about a different class of vehicle than SUVs. Will you also compare it to the glorified hatchback (not even station wagon) that is the BMW X1?

Re: Monsters of the Road: What Should the UK Do About SUVs?

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Minivans are not small, if you have problems with the SUV size then why is a minivan suddenly okay? It's the same size car with a differently styled body and without towing capacity. E.g. Toyota Sienna is the same width and length as BMW X7 and less than 4" shorter in height. And Chrysler Pacifica is longer and wider than either of these (also less than 3" shorter in height than X7). And X7 is a big SUV that I rarely…

Instead of comparing with modern minivan, you should compare them with minivan from 20 years ago since that's what GP was talking about. In my region, minivans from 20 years ago are smaller than new SUVs today.

Sure, even compact cars 20 years ago were smaller than compact cars today. You cannot practically suggest people drive 20-30 y.o. vehicles, for one there are not enough of those.

Re: Monsters of the Road: What Should the UK Do About SUVs?

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have lots of snow and hills here in Norway. I bike year around. Studded tires in the winter. I always find the argument a bit funny, because on the worst snow days the roads are littered with cars and accidents. While I bike happily past. Electric bikes solves the hills-problem for those that don't want to get sweaty. I see lots of parents shipping their kids around on cargo bikes. I hate the argument about "bodil…

I really think that cargo bikes should be banned forever as a huge threat for kids inside. I feel like this is invented for those who takes caring of environment as a religion and ready to sacrifice own kids for it. One could say that the danger for them is mainly from cars but you can say so about public transport. I.e bus or tram is dangerous for cargo bike occupants. I really do not get this when I see cargo bike…

I follow all bicycle related accidents and deaths in my country (as a board member of our bike association), and I've never heard of any serious accidents related to this. It's a non-issue. And as you're saying, the main danger is cars. So having more people bike their kids around is safer for everybody, if they were to stop biking like that it would just be yet another dangerous car on the road.

Re: Monsters of the Road: What Should the UK Do About SUVs?

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really think that cargo bikes should be banned forever as a huge threat for kids inside. I feel like this is invented for those who takes caring of environment as a religion and ready to sacrifice own kids for it. One could say that the danger for them is mainly from cars but you can say so about public transport. I.e bus or tram is dangerous for cargo bike occupants. I really do not get this when I see cargo bike…

I follow all bicycle related accidents and deaths in my country (as a board member of our bike association), and I've never heard of any serious accidents related to this. It's a non-issue. And as you're saying, the main danger is cars. So having more people bike their kids around is safer for everybody, if they were to stop biking like that it would just be yet another dangerous car on the road.

Well, it awesome and great that you live in such a safe place. That does not change the fact that this type of transport is not safe for occupants.

And cars are not always the cause https://www.reuters.com/article/us-netherlands-bike-accident...

Re: Monsters of the Road: What Should the UK Do About SUVs?

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Minivans are not small, if you have problems with the SUV size then why is a minivan suddenly okay? It's the same size car with a differently styled body and without towing capacity. E.g. Toyota Sienna is the same width and length as BMW X7 and less than 4" shorter in height. And Chrysler Pacifica is longer and wider than either of these (also less than 3" shorter in height than X7). And X7 is a big SUV that I rarely…

> Minivans are not small, if you have problems with the SUV size then why is a minivan suddenly okay? Forward visibility for one. There's a meme going around that even main battle tanks (and semi rigs) have better forward visibility than some pick-ups trucks: * https://carbuzz.com/news/the-abrams-m1-tank-has-better-visib... And for all that external size, how much internal storage space do you get in a large SUV like…

SUVs are not pickup trucks though and have better visibility of the road ahead (due to higher eye level and higher headlights) than cars and minivans.

As for internal storage, I am content with the internal storage in a midsize SUV already. Third row in X7 is pretty cramped, if you are regularly driving 7 adults around you better get something with more seating capacity, few people need that IME.

Re: Monsters of the Road: What Should the UK Do About SUVs?

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why weight in particular? Kinetic energy (thus fuel consumption and particles from brakes) and road wear scale with weight. It's not perfect but it's most of the way there. > Two arguments here: 1. SUVs are already taxed on weight indirectly - they consume more fuel which is heavily taxed (50+% in most of Europe). This does not solve the issue with externalities: fuel cost absolutely does not offset the cost to soc…

Road wear scales with the fourth power of weight over an axle. Most fuel consumption is about overcoming drag rather than accelerating so you should expect it to scale with something like cross-sectional area, say weight^2/3, though making cars longer adds weight without much drag and making them boxier can add drag without much weight. I don’t think fuel taxes are particularly good as indirect taxes on the externali…

Ultimately, the people who pay any tax are the end-consumers. A tax like the one you're proposing impacts trucks, ambulances, and buses as well as commercial ride-sharing and taxis. The final cost of the tax will be reflected in the raised prices of groceries, EMS requests, and trips to the airport.

Re: Monsters of the Road: What Should the UK Do About SUVs?

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Road wear scales with the fourth power of weight over an axle. Most fuel consumption is about overcoming drag rather than accelerating so you should expect it to scale with something like cross-sectional area, say weight^2/3, though making cars longer adds weight without much drag and making them boxier can add drag without much weight. I don’t think fuel taxes are particularly good as indirect taxes on the externali…

> Road wear scales with the fourth power of weight over an axle. Cars are not getting more axles, even SUVs, so this is a constant multiplicative factor. I would be happy with a tax that scales as the fourth power of the mass, no problem. That would be actually quite dissuasive very quickly. Though even a linear scaling would be an improvement over the current situation. > Most fuel consumption is about overcoming dr…

What do you mean by constant multiplicative factor’. Are you saying that cars are perfectly balanced between front and back axels (surely a reasonable thing to want for tyre wearing if nothing else). The point about the scaling is that it is not linear: if you double the weight over an axle, you get 16 times the wear but perhaps 1.5-2x the fuel consumption. For this reason I dispute that fuel duty effectively taxes the (externalities due to the) weight of cars. Though I concede that wasn’t really the point you were making.

Re: Monsters of the Road: What Should the UK Do About SUVs?

#169
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dunno, we never felt the need to damage the car to get some more space :-) It just doesn't make sense to use a jumbo jet to get around Kent.

No damage needed, there's like 2x the boot space if you remove the floor plate that has the spare wheel space under it with some polystyrene filling to hold the tools in place. You can put them back again later. Maybe yours has the battery there? We have the petrol only model. I always thought the boot space was too small, as we always seem to fill it up. Oh and it's not a SUV, it's a crossover. A pretty low one as w…

Yes, we own a hybrid so some of that space is eaten by a battery. And the rest of it is taken by all the stuff we always keep around the car.

And yeah, it's kind of hard to classify UXs. Wiki says it's a "subcompact crossover suv" so go figure. Don't really care, for me it's just a nice reasonably sized car.

Re: Monsters of the Road: What Should the UK Do About SUVs?

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Road wear scales with the fourth power of weight over an axle. Most fuel consumption is about overcoming drag rather than accelerating so you should expect it to scale with something like cross-sectional area, say weight^2/3, though making cars longer adds weight without much drag and making them boxier can add drag without much weight. I don’t think fuel taxes are particularly good as indirect taxes on the externali…

Ultimately, the people who pay any tax are the end-consumers. A tax like the one you're proposing impacts trucks, ambulances, and buses as well as commercial ride-sharing and taxis. The final cost of the tax will be reflected in the raised prices of groceries, EMS requests, and trips to the airport.

I’m not proposing a tax, to be clear. One problem with these sorts of taxes on driving is that drivers often see them as a ‘service charge’ they pay to use the roads and they then expect governments to plot that money into road maintenance/construction. I think it’s not great to have a tax whose revenue that people feel should be earmarked for certain things. Perhaps something like an emissions/inefficiency levy on car tax (and based on miles driven) would help but I doubt it would be politically tenable, especially with the current government trying to de-boris their policies (and so walk back on various green things).

I think part of the solution would be changing safety standards to better capture the dangers to other road users, changing liability rules/penalties to make such cars more expensive to insure (though probably the effect is too small to make much difference), having some fines scale with the value of the car (on the one hand I think people speeding, etc, in flashy cars should be particularly penalised. On the other, the UK already has some fines that are meant to scale with income and letting people off by driving smaller cars seems bad. Perhaps an alternative would be fines for certain infractions that are higher for cars that would do more damage were something to happen as a result of the driving), installing more bell bollards on corners so the people who aren’t good at staying on the road risk big dents instead of running over a toddler, and more enforcement against minor violations. Lots of those don’t specifically target oversized cars though.

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