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Is there anywhere in the world someone can just live for free?

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Re: Is there anywhere in the world someone can just live for free?

#411

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

BurningFrog wrote: post #407
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"we've reinvented capitalism" .. ok, so i'll substitute "capitalism" with "phrenology". Who cares about the definition? It's just a word, right? Claiming that A, B & C is the same as D surely needs to imply some concern about the actual meaning of D, no?

Words mean different things for different people and in different contexts. That there is only one universally correct meaning is true in Python, but just not how human language works. Pretty sure what I wrote was understandable for most. You probably also understood it, but felt the need to complain about the vocabulary.

Actually, very much no. I see no connection whatsoever between, on the one hand, division of labor & exchange of labor for money and, on the other hand, capitalism.

The first two may be a necessary precondition for capitalism, but they in no way describe it - they are common elements in human communities that predate capitalism by millenia.

Re: Is there anywhere in the world someone can just live for free?

#412

Post by dragonwriter »

Ancapistani wrote: post #408
xnyan wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They’re having a lot of trouble finding people who they can trust to take that job Let's be generous and say room and board in a rural farmhouse and use of an old farm truck is worth an additional $1500, you would still make more money working 40 hours a week at my town's McDonalds, and if it's like any farm I've ever worked at you'll be working at least twice as hard and twice as long. That's not a job, it's exploi…

The economics of it are very different here. The per capita income is under $40k per annum, and housing costs are quite high relative to that. I don’t have a median income figure handy, but I’m confident it’s much lower than the per capita. I’d have to check, but as of last year our McDonalds was paying $14 / hour. The pay is on par with other entry-level/unskilled positions here, and the figures above are what they…

> The economics of it are very different here.

The experience that they have had trying to hire for the position at the comoens5 they are offering suggests that that is less true than you seem to think.

> I’d have to check, but as of last year our McDonalds was paying $14 / hour.

$14/hr is about $28k/year, which is $10k/year more than the cash pay of the job you are talking about. Sure, the house and allowed personal use of the truck adds some value, but especially for the house realistically less than the what the standalone rental value would be for the house otherwise, because the people taking a job paying $18k/year beyond rent wouldn't be renting a 3 bedroom farmhouse if it wasn't part of the compensation-in-lieu-of-wages of their job.

> Honestly… if I were single, I’d probably make a pitch to take the job while working remotely as a “day job.”

So, maybe their problem is advertising to people who need the pay of a primary job and not single remote-working tech workers looking for a side gig. (Certainly, the added value of the house would be less wasted on the latter group.)

Re: Is there anywhere in the world someone can just live for free?

#413

Post by antisthenes »

keiferski wrote: post #15

It's interesting how quality of life baselines have increased so much in the last century. If you wanted to have the QOL of someone that lived in the American West a hundred years ago, it could be done today for probably $100 a month all-inclusive of food, clothing, and shelter. But you'd be eating the same 5-10 things repeatedly, wearing the same clothes, have a few books for entertainment, minimal or no electronics…

> If you wanted to have the QOL of someone that lived in the American West a hundred years ago, it could be done today for probably $100 a month all-inclusive of food, clothing, and shelter.

No, not even close. People didn't live in tents without utilities in 1923. And they certainly didn't eat 1/3 of the calories of 2023 humans.

Re: Is there anywhere in the world someone can just live for free?

#415

Post by subtra3t »

astura wrote: post #246
codq wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is interesting. He’s doing this entirely by choice? You don’t have a problem with it?

>You don’t have a problem with it? You know that people can't control their adult children, right?

They never suggested that the other person should control their children. I think they wanted to know their opinion on their son's living arrangements.

Re: Is there anywhere in the world someone can just live for free?

#416

Post by tomcam »

Fricken wrote: post #294
supertofu wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

India at the time of the Buddha was favorable to wandering ascetics. People were culturally conditioned to donate alms. And, indeed, alms-seeking is required by the vinaya for monks, so they can't live in complete seclusion from society. Society today is very hostile to wandering folks. Many western monastics independent of monasteries (especially female monastics) have a hard time getting alms without a lot of organ…

I went on a bike tour this summer and for a week was living the life of a wandering folk. I experienced no hostility. People were all very friendly and helpful the whole way. Like, super friendly and super helpful, offering me meals and places to sleep. I had a tire blowout which stranded me at a small town gas station for a few hours, and about a dozen dudes came up over that time and offering me use of their tools…

That is reassuring. Where were you?

Re: Is there anywhere in the world someone can just live for free?

#417

Post by tomcam »

user3939382 wrote: post #183
btbuildem wrote: post #157

OP's premise of "living for free" seems to mean "not pay taxes" and "use what resources are available". I wonder what the motivation is here, I've heard this sentiment expressed many times. It usually seems to imply "away from others". Looking back at the millennia of human history, we've always formed communities, always assumed more-or-less specialized roles, and always used some form of debt to manage the social f…

There are a few places with no property taxes. So you could setup a self sustaining home and after an initial investment live free forever, and still be part of a community.

What places have no property taxes?

Re: Is there anywhere in the world someone can just live for free?

#418

Post by mikhailfranco »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #255
BurningFrog wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Jobs" exist because division of labor is an enormous generator of human welfare. If I have to grow my own food, compose and perform my own music, build my own housing and vehicles, life will be shit. If we do have division of labor and pay each other for the work, we've reinvented capitalism. If we don't pay each other, the incentives are very strong to be a free-rider.

> If we do have division of labor and pay each other for the work, we've reinvented capitalism Nope. Capitalism, at least 21st century western capitalism, consists of 3 things: 1. relatively free markets, in the sense that what can be bought/sold and for how much is only loosely regulated 2. an entrepeneurial culture that supports the idea of "starting a business" 3. the idea that the rewards of any given human ventu…

Your (3) contradicts (1). Rewards do not necessarily go to capital.

(1) says rewards are assigned based on supply and demand. If labor is scarce and investment is plentiful, rewards will go to labor. If investment is scarce, and labor is plentiful, rewards will go to capital (with the obvious caveat that there are many other factors that affect returns, and their distribution within the pools of labor and capital).

Unfortunately for western labor, there has been an exploding world population and lower barriers to trade & investment flows (globalization) for the last 40 years - hence a huge glut in labor. Rewards have gone to mobile capital, tech businesses and workers in the developing-world, not so much to blue-collar work in the west. But that is mostly supply & demand, not a built-in rule of capitalism.

Re: Is there anywhere in the world someone can just live for free?

#419

Post by [deleted] »

nradov wrote: post #320
guerrilla wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't follow because the assumption that it has to take the form of consumption is unwarrented. People have competed to be the most ascetic or otherwise most virtuous or holy on massive scales before. Certain kinds of religious people, activists, hippies and the like still do. It could be the culture again.

Most regular people don't like being miserable. The ascetics have always been a tiny minority in every culture.

[deleted]

Re: Is there anywhere in the world someone can just live for free?

#420

Post by guerrilla »

nradov wrote: post #320
guerrilla wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't follow because the assumption that it has to take the form of consumption is unwarrented. People have competed to be the most ascetic or otherwise most virtuous or holy on massive scales before. Certain kinds of religious people, activists, hippies and the like still do. It could be the culture again.

Most regular people don't like being miserable. The ascetics have always been a tiny minority in every culture.

There's nothing miserable about minimalism, quite the opposite. There's a joy from freedom and peace from reduced stress. It's the hamster wheel and packratting that causes misery.
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