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Shinzo Abe's Assassination

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Re: Shinzo Abe's Assassination

#51

Post by lern_too_spel »

graphe wrote: post #45
lern_too_spel wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobel laureate Steven Weinberg has something to say about this. "With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion."

The Chinese farmer story has something to say about it too. https://matterco.co/the-maybe-story/ > One thing for sure is that life is uncertain. We never really know what situations may yield us—good, bad, or otherwise. Whatever happens in our life, we’ll never be sure of the consequences it may bring in the future.

If that's true, "maybe" we should have let Hitler live.

In real-life, losing a horse or breaking a leg is a bad outcome over 99% of the time, and gaining free horses and avoiding conscription (and defeating despots attempting to conquer the world) is a good outcome over 99% of the time.

Re: Shinzo Abe's Assassination

#52

Post by wddkcs »

graphe wrote: post #47
carlosdp wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Castro example doesn't really fit here. That would be an assassination of a foreign national, not a domestic assassination like in Rabin's or Abe's.

I agree. If Trump or Obama had been assassinated during their presidency, there would have been some support among the public, wide condemnation by the elites worried about their status and a news blackout on why the assassin may have been justified.

An Obama assassination might have led to a more immediate George Floyd style disruption of major cities. The murder of the first black president is a chilling possibility to think about. Trumps assassination might have been equally toxic, given the rhetoric of the time. Especially if it were not denounced by the media, it might have been similarly corrosive. Arguably Trump is being politically assassinated presently, by his own hand as much as anyone else's.

Re: Shinzo Abe's Assassination

#53

Post by snvzz »

freedomben wrote: post #49
snvzz wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am also an atheist, but recognize religion as damaging, forcing a tilting cognitive fog. Never helpful, a net negative to believers and society. The degree of bad depends on the religion and the believer. Plus one must not forget that, for most believers, religion preceded adulthood, even maturity. Meaning it was never a choice, but imposed through indoctrination and immediate social pressure.

I largely agree, except: > Never helpful It clearly is helpful to believers at times. For example, when a loved one dies, it can be extremely comforting to think you'll see them again soon in a paradisical heaven. Comfort when you're hurting is helpful.

>it can be extremely comforting to think you'll see them again soon in a paradisical heaven

Comforting? Sure.

Yet it can be positive if and only if there's no value in grief.

Re: Shinzo Abe's Assassination

#54

Post by imiric »

User23 wrote: post #19
colinb wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

The Soviet atheists absolutely took the cake for most murder by a religious faction. What you’re describing is a people problem, not a religion problem.

> Soviet atheists [...] religious faction.

You're confusing atheism for a religion.

Those murders were conducted by oppressive governments with a specific agenda, that didn't come from some atheist scripture.

> What you’re describing is a people problem, not a religion problem.

It's a problem of organized groups of people motivated by a collective ideology. This is manifested primarily by religions, since most religious texts have some passages that reject foreign groups, or outright invite acts of violence against them[1,2].

[1]: https://www.openbible.info/topics/killing_non_believers

[2]: https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/violence.aspx

Re: Shinzo Abe's Assassination

#55

Post by nihonthrowaway »

mrob wrote: post #44
nihonthrowaway wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who speaks Japanese to be polite, and will dutifully follow all honorifics while in Japan: Japan doesn't get to change English naming conventions in English speaking cultures and civilizations.

But why do China and Korea get to change English naming conventions? What makes Japan an exception?

They don't get to either. The English speaking world can't handle almost every Vietnamese person being Nguyen.

Re: Shinzo Abe's Assassination

#56

Post by pretendscholar »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #16

Meta comment on cultural awareness: "Japan wants you to say its leader’s name correctly: Abe Shinzo [1]" Why authors are still messing this up almost 5 years later is bewildering [1] https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/21/asia/japan-name-abe-shinzo-in...

One of the most annoying things about speaking the dominant world language (obviously it is also great in many respects) is that there is some pressure to change your language rather than just adjusting the sounds and spelling to the pre-existing phonetics. Erdogan is pronounced closer to erdoyan and Türkiye insisting on the umlaut. Nguyen and Pho rather than wynn and pha. Gyro instead of hyro. Blonde vs blond (WHY would we just have adjective modification for that word and none other) and colonel. You have to know a lot about so many different culture when a language should be self contained. I don't tell the Chinese what name to use for my country (I think they call USA something like Beautiful Land) in their language or the Spanish or another group for any word.

Re: Shinzo Abe's Assassination

#57

Post by pretendscholar »

pretendscholar wrote: post #56
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #16

Meta comment on cultural awareness: "Japan wants you to say its leader’s name correctly: Abe Shinzo [1]" Why authors are still messing this up almost 5 years later is bewildering [1] https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/21/asia/japan-name-abe-shinzo-in...

One of the most annoying things about speaking the dominant world language (obviously it is also great in many respects) is that there is some pressure to change your language rather than just adjusting the sounds and spelling to the pre-existing phonetics. Erdogan is pronounced closer to erdoyan and Türkiye insisting on the umlaut. Nguyen and Pho rather than wynn and pha. Gyro instead of hyro. Blonde vs blond (WHY w…

I should say a lot of this is internal as a form of social signaling about worldliness. Also not against loan words its just that you should adjust loan words and concepts to fit the phonetics and grammar of the language.

Re: Shinzo Abe's Assassination

#59

Post by graphe »

wddkcs wrote: post #52
graphe wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. If Trump or Obama had been assassinated during their presidency, there would have been some support among the public, wide condemnation by the elites worried about their status and a news blackout on why the assassin may have been justified.

An Obama assassination might have led to a more immediate George Floyd style disruption of major cities. The murder of the first black president is a chilling possibility to think about. Trumps assassination might have been equally toxic, given the rhetoric of the time. Especially if it were not denounced by the media, it might have been similarly corrosive. Arguably Trump is being politically assassinated presently,…

It's all speculative but there will be support for either, during their presidency or after from people. The US's media is way more controlled, I generally think assassinations are popular among the public.

Re: Shinzo Abe's Assassination

#60

Post by graphe »

lern_too_spel wrote: post #51
graphe wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Chinese farmer story has something to say about it too. https://matterco.co/the-maybe-story/ > One thing for sure is that life is uncertain. We never really know what situations may yield us—good, bad, or otherwise. Whatever happens in our life, we’ll never be sure of the consequences it may bring in the future.

If that's true, "maybe" we should have let Hitler live. In real-life, losing a horse or breaking a leg is a bad outcome over 99% of the time, and gaining free horses and avoiding conscription (and defeating despots attempting to conquer the world) is a good outcome over 99% of the time.

Hitler could have united Europe. Had he won and taken over Russia and Europe it could have been much better. Had Genghis Khan not attacked so many places, legends of centuars may not exist and the world could be better. We don't know.
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