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Othello Is Solved?

arxiv.org

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Re: Othello Is Solved?

#21

Post by dist-epoch »

sdwr wrote: post #10

> Next, we selected 2,587 positions out of the aforementioned 2,958,551 positions and formulated hypotheses regarding their outcomes. We chose them such that if all these hypotheses were proven correct, it would prove that the initial position results in a draw. But no elaboration? Sounds to me like the game is not solved, instead the author looked pretty hard for a winning line, and didn't find one.

More likely, those 2587 positions cover all possibilities.

There are other proofs like this - the 4 color theorem one, which was also reduced to a finite number of configurations which were manually colored.

Re: Othello Is Solved?

#22

Post by dist-epoch »

sciolist wrote: post #15

Is this legit? It seems weird to me that this paper has one author, from a deep-learning startup which I've never heard of before.

It wouldn't be the first time an unknown solves a major problem. And Othello is not exactly the Riemann hypotheses - meaning it wasn't as studied and there could be a low-hanging fruit.

Re: Othello Is Solved?

#25

Post by hermitcrab »

Waterluvian wrote: post #4

Othello is one of those games that works really well for playing with young kids. The rules are simple. There’s patterning to learn. It’s fun to cause massive flips. And best of all, it’s just as fun for the adult as it is the kid. I’ve found that I can really enjoy myself without crushing my 6yo or it feeling like it’s just a luck-based game.

Suggest also having a look at Hus (one of the family of African stone games): https://mancala.fandom.com/wiki/Hus

In theory there is no luck. But in practice you can't calculate that far ahead, due to the chain reactions.

You can easily make your own board.

Re: Othello Is Solved?

#26

Post by BlackFingolfin »

dist-epoch wrote: post #21
sdwr wrote: post #10

> Next, we selected 2,587 positions out of the aforementioned 2,958,551 positions and formulated hypotheses regarding their outcomes. We chose them such that if all these hypotheses were proven correct, it would prove that the initial position results in a draw. But no elaboration? Sounds to me like the game is not solved, instead the author looked pretty hard for a winning line, and didn't find one.

More likely, those 2587 positions cover all possibilities. There are other proofs like this - the 4 color theorem one, which was also reduced to a finite number of configurations which were manually colored.

But none of this explicit. This is at best an announcement of a potential proof. But it isn't a proof yet.

Also curious: in the end of the paper they talk about having "weakly solve" Othello... the paper overall reads really strangely.

Re: Othello Is Solved?

#27

Post by dfan »

BlackFingolfin wrote: post #26
dist-epoch wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More likely, those 2587 positions cover all possibilities. There are other proofs like this - the 4 color theorem one, which was also reduced to a finite number of configurations which were manually colored.

But none of this explicit. This is at best an announcement of a potential proof. But it isn't a proof yet. Also curious: in the end of the paper they talk about having "weakly solve" Othello... the paper overall reads really strangely.

"Weakly solving" a game is a technical term. If you have weakly solved a game, you can play perfectly (achieve the optimal result) when the game starts from its initial position. If you have strongly solved it, you can play perfectly starting from any position.

Re: Othello Is Solved?

#28

Post by jmmcd »

BlackFingolfin wrote: post #26
dist-epoch wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More likely, those 2587 positions cover all possibilities. There are other proofs like this - the 4 color theorem one, which was also reduced to a finite number of configurations which were manually colored.

But none of this explicit. This is at best an announcement of a potential proof. But it isn't a proof yet. Also curious: in the end of the paper they talk about having "weakly solve" Othello... the paper overall reads really strangely.

"weakly solve" is not curious. Read from the start, they define this.

Re: Othello Is Solved?

#29

Post by chaboud »

makach wrote: post #17

Does that mean there are no disadvantages going second?

Having not read the paper, it sounds like the author is asserting that the game is solved under perfect play as a draw.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solved_game

That would point to there being no advantage in perfect play. However, in imperfect play, the first or second player could still have a measured advantage.

Re: Othello Is Solved?

#30

Post by jmmcd »

Avlin67 wrote: post #23

no, Othello is not complex, I do not remember exactly how but i did play a lot when i was you and did find a way to win consistently...

And if you played against yourself, did you still win?
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