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How to pronounce the trickiest English words

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Re: How to pronounce the trickiest English words

#91
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of my French professors said (and I think she was serious?) that the French have conjugation-bees, not spelling bees, because French spelling is too easy to be able to build a contest around it. If you can say it, you can almost certainly spell it. Too few exceptions to that to make spelling bees work.

I beg to differ. Here's a simple example, both "eaux" (waters) and "oh" sound the exact same.

Ô haut zoo aux eaux d'ozone,

Qu'un verre en verre vert de vers

Puise en vous, puis en vous puisse envoûter vos badauds au bas dos.

Re: How to pronounce the trickiest English words

#92
post #20
post #3

Sorry to say this (and I might get some flak for this) but English is a pretty dumb language. I am no linguist and not even a native English speaker and thus this may be my ignorance speaking. I am happy to learn from you all and change my current opinion on English. I am native Hindi speaker and at no time in Hindi can you have a different pronunciations from how the word is written (cache, knowledge, repertoire...)…

English is what you got when Anglo-Saxon peasants were forced to serve French speaking nobles. Which is why basic grammar and simple words are Germanic in origin, while words for food, laws, and various complex things have Romance origins. And then went on to become traders who borrow words from everywhere. Add to that constantly shifting pronunciation rules. To pick an example that is only mostly complete, "wear" an…

> English is what you got when Anglo-Saxon peasants were forced to serve French speaking nobles.

And when the spelling was largely fixed by William Caxton, who pronounced the words with a 15th century Kentish accent

Re: How to pronounce the trickiest English words

#93
post #49
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

English is what you got when Anglo-Saxon peasants were forced to serve French speaking nobles. Which is why basic grammar and simple words are Germanic in origin, while words for food, laws, and various complex things have Romance origins. And then went on to become traders who borrow words from everywhere. Add to that constantly shifting pronunciation rules. To pick an example that is only mostly complete, "wear" an…

> Add to that constantly shifting pronunciation rules. To pick an example that is only mostly complete, "wear" and "where" are now homonyms for most people. But a century ago they mostly were not. The spelling captures the historical pronunciation, not the current one. It's worth noting that's not unique to English: it's a phenomenon that's universally happens across all languages. It's how language diverge into new…

Pronunciation drifts in all languages. But usually languages take some effort to have either a clear mapping from spelling to pronunciation (when you read it you can pronounce it) or from pronunciation to spelling (when you can pronounce it you can spell it); or some compromise that tries to achieve both. Hence when pronunciation drifts too far that eventually causes the word to be spelt differently too.

Meanwhile English seems to have spelling set mostly in stone hundreds of years ago, and any shifts in pronunciation since then are just ignored (barring minor reforms like the ou->o thing that part of the world adopted)

Re: How to pronounce the trickiest English words

#94

There are English words that reminds me the alien language from Arrival (or it’s original short story), that was different spoken from written.

That's "Story of Your Life" by Ted Chiang.

The film adaptation on IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2543164

Re: How to pronounce the trickiest English words

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I'm aware, every language out there is dumb, and English isn't especially dumb. Yes, its particular wart is pronunciation, and then also phrasal verbs especially [1]. But what are the dumb things English doesn't have? Noun genders (why?). A hundred different suffixes for regular verb conjugations (ugh). Subjunctives all over the place (maddening). A character-based script that isn't phonetic at all (e.g. Ch…

I learned how to read and write in my native language in 2 weeks at age 6, when I learned half of alphabet, because I figured out rest of alphabet on my own. I'm reading non-stop since then. How much it takes to learn how to properly read, write, listen, and speak in English? It took me about 20 years in total, but I still cannot talk properly.

But at age 6 you've already been immersed in the language for 6 years. The problem there is to link it to its written form.

When you learn a second language you have the baggage of the first language hindering you (talking about orthography here), and you normally don't start by speaking the language exclusively for 6 years before learning how to read. If you don't know what the language is supposed to sound like, of course it's hard to understand how to read in it.

Re: How to pronounce the trickiest English words

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dutch (and I assume German?) has a similar verb story for various pronouns. "She" is also "they" in both stressed/unstressed forms (ze/zij). "His" is the exact same word as the infinitive form of "to be" (zijn). The formal "u" can mean "you" or "you all" and it always has the same accompanying verb form, even for plurals. The only way to tell them apart is context, like you said. While English does have these example…

> did you ever internalize the importance of the verbs "to be/is/am/are/been/were" and "to have/has/had" growing up as a native English speaker? Definitely not to the extent that I'm having to for French! At the moment I don't have a lot of spare time to think (eek) and reflect on this, but regarding those verbs, French definitely has some different usage of them when compared to English including sometimes using "ha…

It is the same in Dutch. "To be" and "to have" are modal verbs that can be combined with other verbs to convey a mixture of past, present, and future tenses.

For example, in some forms of the past tense, you must start the sentence with 1. subject, 2. modal verb, rest of the sentence, and then the verb infinitive.

Ik _ben_ naar de supermarkt gegaan.

"I _am_ to the supermarket gone." - is the literal translation. The correct translation would be "I went to the supermarket."

But for a different verb, say, "Zitten" (to sit), you have to create the past tense with the verb "to have"

Ik _heb_ op de bank gezeten.

I _have_ on the couch sat. You get the idea.

There is a rule for when to use "be/have" and it relates to what I've been told is "a sense of movement or change". This could be literal, like a change of location, starting/stopping, or it could even be a _change of mind_. In those scenarios, you use "to be", which I think makes logical sense! You are literally changing yourself, changing your state of being, by literally moving or thinking about something in a different way.

In all other scenarios, you use "to have". It makes less logical sense on it's own, but is fine when you contrast it with "to be."

It is by far the hardest part of grok-ing a vital part of the grammar, but I am thankful that it at least follows some sort of logical rules when I compare it to English. Being native speakers, we take a lot of those things for granted.

Re: How to pronounce the trickiest English words

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I'm aware, every language out there is dumb, and English isn't especially dumb. Yes, its particular wart is pronunciation, and then also phrasal verbs especially [1]. But what are the dumb things English doesn't have? Noun genders (why?). A hundred different suffixes for regular verb conjugations (ugh). Subjunctives all over the place (maddening). A character-based script that isn't phonetic at all (e.g. Ch…

English also seems very amenable to loanwords from other languages -- you can usually just drop foreign words directly into English without any special twists. It seems much more fiddly in French, German, etc. In Japanese you always have to modify the pronunciation of English words (though maybe that comes easily with practice); in English you just go ahead and say "karaoke", "tsunami", etc. Am I right in thinking En…

We do Anglicize pronunciation of loan words, heavily. "Karaoke" is actually a good example of that: https://forvo.com/word/karaoke/#ja

Re: How to pronounce the trickiest English words

#98
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> English is a pretty dumb language Don't mix up language and spelling. Spelling is man-made. Language is not dumb.

> Don't mix up language and spelling. Spelling is man-made. Language is not dumb. Are you suggesting that language is /not/ man-made?

I guess he mean that written form is often thought as coming from a few érudits through an intensely conscious endeavor, while oral language is evolving mostly in the wild and result mostly from internalized unconscious conventions.

I mean, these views can be debated, but are probably what was referred to here.

Re: How to pronounce the trickiest English words

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I'm aware, every language out there is dumb, and English isn't especially dumb. Yes, its particular wart is pronunciation, and then also phrasal verbs especially [1]. But what are the dumb things English doesn't have? Noun genders (why?). A hundred different suffixes for regular verb conjugations (ugh). Subjunctives all over the place (maddening). A character-based script that isn't phonetic at all (e.g. Ch…

English also seems very amenable to loanwords from other languages -- you can usually just drop foreign words directly into English without any special twists. It seems much more fiddly in French, German, etc. In Japanese you always have to modify the pronunciation of English words (though maybe that comes easily with practice); in English you just go ahead and say "karaoke", "tsunami", etc. Am I right in thinking En…

We definitely don't shy away from butchering the pronunciation of our loanwords.

Re: How to pronounce the trickiest English words

#100
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hardest part about english as far as I know is vocabulary - which is vast - something like 1/3rd larger than other languages because of the dual parentage of English and French - and thats before you get into words that have three or four definitions. The one nice thing about English is you can totally munge it, wrong tenses, slightly wrong words, wrong word order, and its still intelligible. Like, you can transl…

> something like 1/3rd larger than other languages This is basically an urban legend. Comparing vocabulary sizes between languages is essentially impossible, as what counts as a word is measured differently. (Think those long compound words in German, for example.) And using things like "total dictionary size" is similarly unhelpful because most of the words are technical or archaic, and it mostly depends on how deep…

> There aren't dual words for "head" or "feet"

There aren't two words for "feet", but the medical specialism that deals with "feet" (germanic root) is "podiatry" and if you want your feet beautified then you get a "pedicure" (both latin root). In some cases both roots are commonly used.

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