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How to pronounce the trickiest English words

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Re: How to pronounce the trickiest English words

#31
post #19
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

English is the c++ of languages. Wildly useful and used, has accrued eons of complexity, has original sins coming from its parents' and everybody uses it differently

>has original sins coming frome its parents Not really. Its biggest sin is melting-potting too many parents, resulting in an irredeemable mess. And even totally unrelated to the parents: The languages around the globe largely agree on the five vocals. There may be one or two missing at times, but they are pretty much the same everywhere you go, European-descent or not, and then you got fucking English. Where an "a" i…

... or PHP

Yeah, english is a lot like PHP.

Re: How to pronounce the trickiest English words

#32
post #20
post #3

Sorry to say this (and I might get some flak for this) but English is a pretty dumb language. I am no linguist and not even a native English speaker and thus this may be my ignorance speaking. I am happy to learn from you all and change my current opinion on English. I am native Hindi speaker and at no time in Hindi can you have a different pronunciations from how the word is written (cache, knowledge, repertoire...)…

English is what you got when Anglo-Saxon peasants were forced to serve French speaking nobles. Which is why basic grammar and simple words are Germanic in origin, while words for food, laws, and various complex things have Romance origins. And then went on to become traders who borrow words from everywhere. Add to that constantly shifting pronunciation rules. To pick an example that is only mostly complete, "wear" an…

This feels like reading German.

Re: How to pronounce the trickiest English words

#33
post #3

Sorry to say this (and I might get some flak for this) but English is a pretty dumb language. I am no linguist and not even a native English speaker and thus this may be my ignorance speaking. I am happy to learn from you all and change my current opinion on English. I am native Hindi speaker and at no time in Hindi can you have a different pronunciations from how the word is written (cache, knowledge, repertoire...)…

Among European languages, English is maybe the language with the less consistency, when it comes to writing, but it is far from being the only one. French is another one, and English borrowed not only a lot of French words, but a lot of them were borrowed with their old French spelling. To understand why English and many other European languages have such weird spelling rules, you have to start with the initial reason: religion. Most Western European countries used to be Catholics, and the main language of the Church was Latin. The Latin alphabet was designed to write down... Latin. The Romans modified and adapted the Etruscan alphabet, which was borrowed from the Greek, who borrowed it from the Phoenicians , etc. to their own language. However, when European languages developed as national languages, they faced a real issue, which was to adapt the Latin alphabet, which was ubiquitous in Western Europe, to their own languages. If you compare the spelling system of Hindi to Latin, you immediately see the problem.

The Latin alphabet is very poor and is composed of only 26 letters. And many sounds in Germanic languages do not have their counterpart in Latin. People started to use combinations of letters to represent their own specific sounds, which were pretty unique to each country. For instance, you cannot read Dutch if you apply English rules to it.

In the case of English, the problem is even more complicated. For one, the official language of England up to the 15th century was French, which explained why 40% of a text in English is composed of French words. Second, when people started writing in English, there was no government body to enforce a common spelling. So, printer shops all over England came up with their own ways to spell out words, and the result is this hogwash of spelling that is English today.

The last problem, which is a problem that many international languages, such as Spanish, German, French and Portuguese are faced with, is that every decision to change the spelling of your language should be the result of international comities. And since, there are so many different accents today, it has become quite difficult to come up with a regular pronunciation, and hence, a regular spelling for any of these languages. I can tell you that as a Frenchman, speaking Parisian French, I would have a hard time convincing Belgian or Quebecers that my accent is the right one... :-)

Now, a language usually becomes an international language when the country who speak it reaches some kind of dominance, it has nothing to do with any qualities this language might have. In Europe, this was the case for Greek, Latin, then Italian, French, German and now English. Machine translation might change this situation, but I doubt it, since English is so much ingrained into science and technology now. And the US, and most English speaking countries, have little interests to see their language loosing their prominence. We French speakers went this route after the Second World War... So we know the drill... Economically, this is a real bonanza, you can attract the best students, the best researchers, the best journals etc... You can impose your movies, your literature and of course your values... Why do you think Paris was the capital of arts and literature during the XIXth century? Language... Now it is New York or London... Language again.

Re: How to pronounce the trickiest English words

#34
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I'm aware, every language out there is dumb, and English isn't especially dumb. Yes, its particular wart is pronunciation, and then also phrasal verbs especially [1]. But what are the dumb things English doesn't have? Noun genders (why?). A hundred different suffixes for regular verb conjugations (ugh). Subjunctives all over the place (maddening). A character-based script that isn't phonetic at all (e.g. Ch…

The hardest part about english as far as I know is vocabulary - which is vast - something like 1/3rd larger than other languages because of the dual parentage of English and French - and thats before you get into words that have three or four definitions. The one nice thing about English is you can totally munge it, wrong tenses, slightly wrong words, wrong word order, and its still intelligible. Like, you can transl…

It's still intelligible*

(Unless that's the joke)

Re: How to pronounce the trickiest English words

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who is currently learning French and (amateur) teaching English I agree in general with your take on English. The frequency with which I say "yes, it doesn't really make sense to pronounce it that way" is high. English is full of crazy inconsistencies and I feel lucky to have learned it as a native speaker. Here's a nice illustration/example of what you've written: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghoti I rea…

One of my French professors said (and I think she was serious?) that the French have conjugation-bees, not spelling bees, because French spelling is too easy to be able to build a contest around it. If you can say it, you can almost certainly spell it. Too few exceptions to that to make spelling bees work.

It's the other way around, if you can see a word written you can pronounce it, but French notoriously has a large number of homophonous syllables.

Re: How to pronounce the trickiest English words

#36
post #3

Sorry to say this (and I might get some flak for this) but English is a pretty dumb language. I am no linguist and not even a native English speaker and thus this may be my ignorance speaking. I am happy to learn from you all and change my current opinion on English. I am native Hindi speaker and at no time in Hindi can you have a different pronunciations from how the word is written (cache, knowledge, repertoire...)…

In spanish, for example, there's two ways to deal with foreign words: you either substitute for a new native one (balompié instead of football), or you localize its spelling (fútbol instead of football). Once this is done, football jumps from being an extranjerismo to a barbarismo, and its usage is shunned. But it is quite easier to push this with a language governing authority, and even with one it does not always w…

Create an app or plugin for spanization of English words, please. Huge thanks in advance.

Re: How to pronounce the trickiest English words

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who is currently learning French and (amateur) teaching English I agree in general with your take on English. The frequency with which I say "yes, it doesn't really make sense to pronounce it that way" is high. English is full of crazy inconsistencies and I feel lucky to have learned it as a native speaker. Here's a nice illustration/example of what you've written: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghoti I rea…

One of my French professors said (and I think she was serious?) that the French have conjugation-bees, not spelling bees, because French spelling is too easy to be able to build a contest around it. If you can say it, you can almost certainly spell it. Too few exceptions to that to make spelling bees work.

I beg to differ. Here's a simple example, both "eaux" (waters) and "oh" sound the exact same.

Re: How to pronounce the trickiest English words

#38
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hardest part about english as far as I know is vocabulary - which is vast - something like 1/3rd larger than other languages because of the dual parentage of English and French - and thats before you get into words that have three or four definitions. The one nice thing about English is you can totally munge it, wrong tenses, slightly wrong words, wrong word order, and its still intelligible. Like, you can transl…

It's still intelligible* (Unless that's the joke)

I fixed it in an edit just as you posted your comment lol!

Re: How to pronounce the trickiest English words

#39
post #3

Sorry to say this (and I might get some flak for this) but English is a pretty dumb language. I am no linguist and not even a native English speaker and thus this may be my ignorance speaking. I am happy to learn from you all and change my current opinion on English. I am native Hindi speaker and at no time in Hindi can you have a different pronunciations from how the word is written (cache, knowledge, repertoire...)…

As someone who is currently learning French and (amateur) teaching English I agree in general with your take on English. The frequency with which I say "yes, it doesn't really make sense to pronounce it that way" is high. English is full of crazy inconsistencies and I feel lucky to have learned it as a native speaker. Here's a nice illustration/example of what you've written: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghoti I rea…

A fun meme to this effect: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWNzmX4QBK4

Re: How to pronounce the trickiest English words

#40
post #3

Sorry to say this (and I might get some flak for this) but English is a pretty dumb language. I am no linguist and not even a native English speaker and thus this may be my ignorance speaking. I am happy to learn from you all and change my current opinion on English. I am native Hindi speaker and at no time in Hindi can you have a different pronunciations from how the word is written (cache, knowledge, repertoire...)…

You're right, but English is not that rare.

Hindi, like my native Romanian, is part of a relatively small group of languages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonemic_orthography#Compariso...

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