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How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer [video]

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Re: How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer [video]

#201

Post by robervin »

danielvaughn wrote: post #140
Aurornis wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But getting "founding engineer" level equity on the order of 0.5% (before dilution!) seems to basically be a scam, where you're working 2x the amount for lower salaries than the market, 0.5% at an early stage with below market compensation, no refreshers with future rounds, negligible comp increase with future rounds, and below-market salary is indeed a scam. A lot of startups are happy to operate this way. On the…

Yeah that's wild. I was a founding engineer once, and got 15% via a sweat equity agreement. No way I'd be considered a co-founder for under 1%.

I believe the parent comment is using founding engineer to mean early employee (not necessarily first, and differentiated from "founder"). 15% is certainly "founder" levels of equity, but it's all arbitrary.

Re: How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer [video]

#202

Post by choppaface »

timfsu wrote: post #127
Apocryphon wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't the CEO be the product guy?

Product CEO only works for companies where the product sells itself, which in my experience is only a small fraction of companies

If the product doesn’t sell itself, then the founders failed to make something people want. If sales lead the company instead of product, then market-making becomes the company’s actual product.

Re: How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer [video]

#204

Post by pb7 »

throwaway092323 wrote: post #187
pb7 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who decides what they’re worth?

> Who decides what they’re worth? The poster above you; they're the one who made an implicit claim about the value of software developers' work. You're welcome to disagree. Do you think everyone is paid fairly?

They’re wrong. You’re worth what you can fetch. If you feel that it’s unfair, find a new bidder and make it fair.

Re: How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer [video]

#205

Post by throwaway092323 »

pb7 wrote: post #204
throwaway092323 wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who decides what they’re worth? The poster above you; they're the one who made an implicit claim about the value of software developers' work. You're welcome to disagree. Do you think everyone is paid fairly?

They’re wrong. You’re worth what you can fetch. If you feel that it’s unfair, find a new bidder and make it fair.

Does that logic still apply to teachers? How about public defenders? Food bank staff?

Punishing people for believing in their work is called "exploitation".

Re: How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer [video]

#206

Post by DoughnutHole »

VirusNewbie wrote: post #198
ditonal wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because FAANG pays equity too. Google will pay a senior engineer 200k base and 250k in liquid stock a year for 450k TC. That stock is also incredibly low risk. If a startup paying market means 450k cash, absolutely there’s no need for equity. But if it means matching the 200k base then obviously you’re screwed with no equity. And I’m theory it should be a lot of equity given the much higher risk premium.

According to levels.FYI, Google average for senior engineer is closer to 360k. But your point still stands. You are getting equity either way, both are likely to appreciate, but one is likely to be more liquid. So you're trading liquidity for a higher return.

> both are likely to appreciate

More than half of all startups fail within the first 10 years. They’re not just less liquid, they never experience a liquidity event at all. That equity is effectively $0.

The odds of any given big company going bust are dramatically lower than that. Their equity might depreciate but it’ll at least be worth something.

Re: How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer [video]

#207

Post by KRAKRISMOTT »

choppaface wrote: post #202
timfsu wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Product CEO only works for companies where the product sells itself, which in my experience is only a small fraction of companies

If the product doesn’t sell itself, then the founders failed to make something people want. If sales lead the company instead of product, then market-making becomes the company’s actual product.

You are getting confused by product led growth. It's a popular tech business model but most enterprise software doesn't work that way.

Re: How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer [video]

#208

Post by nick222226 »

saliagato wrote: post #193
eweise wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Been working at startups on and off for over 20 years. In total I've spent more money on stock options than I've made from them.

Care to elaborate?

Pay to exercise options and pay for imputed taxes. In a year or two company folds and you get nothing.

Re: How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer [video]

#210

Post by Ancalagon »

bjornsing wrote: post #148

I don’t think I’ve ever seen two people laugh so much over such a sad topic… Also, I think it’s a mistake to talk about exploitation and blame when your startup is not working. Honestly, most startups don’t work out and it’s not really anybody’s fault. It’s kind of the default.

I really agree, it was kind of disconcerting that they were having so much fun with it. Lots of people have worked very hard in their careers expecting these kinds of plays to pan out for them and hoping for fairness from business folks and it doesn't work out that way.
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