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How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer [video]

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Re: How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer [video]

#141

Post by pc86 »

Aurornis wrote: post #120
satvikpendem wrote: post #9

One of the top comments on the YouTube video attached to the article talks about how someone wasted their 20s working as the founding engineer (employee #6 of a 6-person startup) and when the company exited for $100 MM, they only got 100k and are still working at 40 years of age while the other 5, presumably having cofounder-level equity, are retired. This is the true risk of startups, and, if you're looking to maxim…

> But getting "founding engineer" level equity on the order of 0.5% (before dilution!) seems to basically be a scam, where you're working 2x the amount for lower salaries than the market, 0.5% at an early stage with below market compensation, no refreshers with future rounds, negligible comp increase with future rounds, and below-market salary is indeed a scam. A lot of startups are happy to operate this way. On the…

Serious question: if you're truly being paid a market-rate salary -- e.g. roughly as much as you could make at any other VC-funded enterprise, any FAANG company, etc, not the same $110k/yr you'd make at a bank or consulting firm -- why would you get any equity? The whole point of equity is that you have skin in the game and "work harder" (whatever that means) to make the company a success. At least in the early days part of that was accepting lower cash compensation in exchange for a piece of the upside. Why, if you're going to treat a founding or near-founding position as a 9-5, 40-hour week, clock-in-clock-out type of position, would you get a piece of the upside compared to just working at a bank or consulting firm?

Re: How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer [video]

#142

Post by bjornsing »

nextos wrote: post #50
ldjkfkdsjnv wrote: post #3

How to get rich in tech as a mediocre programmer: 1. Transfer to a TPM/QA Manager role at somewhere like Amazon or Microsoft. Bar is much lower to get into this role. 2. Get hired into a higher level than you could in a SWE role. 3. Transfer within the company to being an SDM 4. Now you are one level higher, in a management role, that would have taken you 5+ years of grinding and some luck to get into. 5. Spend a few…

I love this comment because IMHO most organizations that have become dysfunctional host a large number of individuals that have hacked the company ranks the way you describe. The pattern is identical in other industries and even in academia. Professors are supposed to be technical staff, but in reality most have become middle-managers bossing around scientists much smarter than them (paraphrasing the OP). Plus, they…

If you want to see the extreme, come to Sweden. Here many see soft and hard skills as mutually exclusive. So hard work and understanding the nitty gritty details is extremely bad for your career, in many companies. You can imagine the culture it fosters.

But the situation is improving somewhat. At least that’s my impression. Like a drunk that has hit rock bottom we’re on our way to recovery. :)

Re: How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer [video]

#143

Post by CalRobert »

ldjkfkdsjnv wrote: post #3

How to get rich in tech as a mediocre programmer: 1. Transfer to a TPM/QA Manager role at somewhere like Amazon or Microsoft. Bar is much lower to get into this role. 2. Get hired into a higher level than you could in a SWE role. 3. Transfer within the company to being an SDM 4. Now you are one level higher, in a management role, that would have taken you 5+ years of grinding and some luck to get into. 5. Spend a few…

Geeze, I just gotta figure this out. Middle aged engineering lead here and definitely not on $400k.

Re: How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer [video]

#144

Post by bllchmbrs »

brettproctor wrote: post #121
satvikpendem wrote: post #9

One of the top comments on the YouTube video attached to the article talks about how someone wasted their 20s working as the founding engineer (employee #6 of a 6-person startup) and when the company exited for $100 MM, they only got 100k and are still working at 40 years of age while the other 5, presumably having cofounder-level equity, are retired. This is the true risk of startups, and, if you're looking to maxim…

These folks just put up a long post trying to weigh the risk v reward at various startup stages. Mostly summarized into: "Joining at Series C may give you an ideal combination of risk and reward. Series C startups had the highest weighted growth in our analysis, followed by Series B and A." https://www.joinprospect.com/blog/which-stage-startup

There are 2 problems with the analysis in the article:

1. They choose startups from 2014-2015. Valuations were (a) more reasonable then and (b) we've just been through one of the biggest bull markets of tech stocks in the past decades. 2. That taking the "Mean Valuation Growth" over that time period is meaningless if (a) there hasn't been a liquidity event and (b) if the mean is weighted by outliers (which it always is).

Portfolio / VC strategy is a bet on power laws. We, as employees, don't have that opportunity. That means we've got to be deliberate about who we join to try to hit a power law outcome.

Am I crazy here?

Re: How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer [video]

#145

Post by mistrial9 »

neilv wrote: post #128
pseudalopex wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it hilarious?

And then his accountant/advisor said something like, "If you'd told me you were going to buy a nightclub, there are easier ways to lose all your money."

you know the best way to have a million dollars in the Rock'n Roll world?

A. start with two million !

Re: How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer [video]

#146

Post by a945a9o5u9 »

satvikpendem wrote: post #9

One of the top comments on the YouTube video attached to the article talks about how someone wasted their 20s working as the founding engineer (employee #6 of a 6-person startup) and when the company exited for $100 MM, they only got 100k and are still working at 40 years of age while the other 5, presumably having cofounder-level equity, are retired. This is the true risk of startups, and, if you're looking to maxim…

And that is exactly why I left my last company. As person #4 I was offered 1% over four years, an extremely below-market-rate salary, and no benefits. I left after exactly one year and didn't bother to exercise my 0.25%. People #2 and #3 left a little while after that. Person #1 / CEO / CTO / Maker-Of-All-Decisions is still there, somehow, still funded by monthly donations from family members and now crowdfunding.

Re: How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer [video]

#147

Post by paxys »

I have seen so many of their examples happen first hand in the industry.

- Lead engineer works 100 hour weeks to keep the company running for a below-market salary and 0.05% equity while the founders and product/sales leads constantly sell shares on the secondary market, buy fancy toys and travel the world.

- Technical cofounder gets a 3% equity because the "business guy" came up with the idea and deserves the other 97%.

- Early engineers are offered seemingly good equity but end up with lower class shares that are first to be diluted away, and an exit below some magic number thought up by founders/VCs earns them nothing because preferred shares get first dibs.

The startup game is probably not right for you as a software engineer if you don't have a "type A" personality and aren't willing to have uncomfortable conversations and fight to get your fair share. Otherwise you are just a resource to be exploited.

Re: How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer [video]

#148

Post by bjornsing »

I don’t think I’ve ever seen two people laugh so much over such a sad topic…

Also, I think it’s a mistake to talk about exploitation and blame when your startup is not working. Honestly, most startups don’t work out and it’s not really anybody’s fault. It’s kind of the default.

Re: How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer [video]

#149

Post by eweise »

satvikpendem wrote: post #9

One of the top comments on the YouTube video attached to the article talks about how someone wasted their 20s working as the founding engineer (employee #6 of a 6-person startup) and when the company exited for $100 MM, they only got 100k and are still working at 40 years of age while the other 5, presumably having cofounder-level equity, are retired. This is the true risk of startups, and, if you're looking to maxim…

Been working at startups on and off for over 20 years. In total I've spent more money on stock options than I've made from them.

Re: How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer [video]

#150

Post by mattgreenrocks »

ryandrake wrote: post #135
mattgreenrocks wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An IC variant of this I see: 1. Climb to highest rung that is readily handed out on IC ladder 2. Agree to take on more leadership/management tasks, or even go full-time. (Impact, amirite) 3. After a few years: job hop elsewhere, using your combined tech and management experience 4. Enter at staff/principal, skipping the sometimes brutal process of getting there directly from IC. Like the OP, this exploits the fact th…

Number 2 is easier said than done. I'm currently sitting at that terrible spot where I'm at the top of the IC ladder, and need to become a manager and have direct reports in order to continue climbing, but the dreaded chicken and egg problem prevents it: You need management experience to become (or job hop to be) a manager. I had the same painful conversation with my boss that a lot of us have had: Became the top sub…

Yes. I should say sometimes there's a huge time gap between 1 and 2, as you need enough clout to have someone agree to take a chance on you.

Hope your luck changes on this front.

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