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How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer [video]

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Re: How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer [video]

#91

Post by _yf4k »

After having worked at four startups, including two as CTO, I have zero remaining equity or financial upside from any of the startup equity. This is the bitter take away, your equity will most likely amount to nothing unless the company is on a clear path to IPO/ acquisition or a promise of share buy back during the time you're at the company. This is a higher bar than simple profitability.

The reason you work at a startup is because you

1. seek to start a company in the future and want to index on the mistakes of the startup you work at

2. want to grow in responsibility/ leadership because you're bored at BigTech

3. want to learn more and apply the learnings, hopefully also experiencing the exhilaration that comes from hockey stick growth

The advice to my younger self would be to ignore startup equity if you're an employee for all practical purposes. The only concrete indicator that equity signals is the trust your founders have in you.

Re: How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer [video]

#92

Post by Apocryphon »

BayesianDice wrote: post #86
Apocryphon wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To dissent from the other answers- thought TPM was Technical Program Manager.

I believe that is (or at least was) true at Google - although from what I knew of the role, it sounded like it also covered what I would consider project management. (I think I would often consider program mangement to be coordinating/managing across multiple projects as part of a broader program of work, but I don't think that was what Google meant by that title.)

At Apple, the ubiquitous EPMs are Engineering Program Managers. But yep, I think we're just quibbling over terms that aren't standardized across (or even within) companies, but describe roles that are more or less the same.

Re: How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer [video]

#93

Post by aleph_minus_one »

onion2k wrote: post #16
ldjkfkdsjnv wrote: post #3

How to get rich in tech as a mediocre programmer: 1. Transfer to a TPM/QA Manager role at somewhere like Amazon or Microsoft. Bar is much lower to get into this role. 2. Get hired into a higher level than you could in a SWE role. 3. Transfer within the company to being an SDM 4. Now you are one level higher, in a management role, that would have taken you 5+ years of grinding and some luck to get into. 5. Spend a few…

while bossing around engineers much smarter than you How much smarter than you are they if you've taken an effective shortcut to getting paid significantly more while doing a lot less work? Working harder, taking all the stress, and earning less doesn't sound that smart.

> How much smarter than you are they if you've taken an effective shortcut to getting paid significantly more while doing a lot less work?

This is not about smartness, but about willingness for ass-kissing and ability of to play political games. This is not associated with intelligence, but with dark triad traits. Quite some smart people look through all this, but are incapable of changing the situation.

Re: How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer [video]

#94

Post by Berone »

satvikpendem wrote: post #58
Berone wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The path to getting into these founder / c-suite roles is those founding engineer roles in which you can learn how to scale and operate these ventures. The founding engineer role at 0.5% is not meant to be a role to retire on, but a stepping stone to those bigger roles.

Not really, it's better to just start your own startup instead, there is not much need to spend years as a founding engineer before becoming a founder, you might learn some skills but it's nothing you can't learn yourself, as evidenced by the people who are first time founders who did not previously work at a startup. If you get to some scale and get acquired (or even shut down), you can leverage that for future high…

It just depends on if you have the background and talent to warrant that role. I think that is an exceptional case for someone to get funding and support to build a venture without any operating experience.

Re: How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer [video]

#95

Post by passion__desire »

scarface_74 wrote: post #70
ldjkfkdsjnv wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think alot of engineers are under the impression that if they work hard enough they will be promoted. But actually, the company gains the most from highly productive mid level engineers. These are the workhorses, they do not want to promote them.

You never get promoted for “working hard”. You get promoted by showing your ability to work at a larger “scope”, showing “impact” and “dealing with ambiguity”. All of the leveling guidelines of tech companies I’ve seen or heard about have the same concepts.

What about the ambiguity engineers cut through when making decisions like whether to use "React" or "Svelte"? and subsequent success or failure, whatever the case may be. Are these decisions less important that top level ones?

Re: How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer [video]

#96

Post by Berone »

compiler-guy wrote: post #84
Berone wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The path to getting into these founder / c-suite roles is those founding engineer roles in which you can learn how to scale and operate these ventures. The founding engineer role at 0.5% is not meant to be a role to retire on, but a stepping stone to those bigger roles.

A "Founding Engineer" at 0.5% is an inflated title for "someone who can actually produce a project but is going to get clobbered at exit time." The title itself is mostly a lie.

I agree. What started as a title that signaled the individual was there at the earliest parts of building the venture, it has been abused.

Re: How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer [video]

#97

Post by AmericanChopper »

ldjkfkdsjnv wrote: post #3

How to get rich in tech as a mediocre programmer: 1. Transfer to a TPM/QA Manager role at somewhere like Amazon or Microsoft. Bar is much lower to get into this role. 2. Get hired into a higher level than you could in a SWE role. 3. Transfer within the company to being an SDM 4. Now you are one level higher, in a management role, that would have taken you 5+ years of grinding and some luck to get into. 5. Spend a few…

> There's no easy answer, as many engineers do not have the soft skills for the role. But arguably, they could run these businesses themselves.

I like most of this comment, but this I always think this perspective completely misses the point.

No matter how technical your role is, working with other people is always going to be the most important part of your job. No matter how technically talented you are, your ability to deliver value to an organisation is going to be strictly bottlenecked by your ability to work with others.

This is especially true for leadership roles, where success or failure in the job is almost entirely decided by people skills.

You can have a technical founder who understands the product perfectly, and the understands the market perfectly, and has a brilliant strategic vision. But if they can’t lead people effectively, if they can’t represent the business to the public, if they can’t develop trust among the customers, then they have basically none of the skills required to run the business.

Re: How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer [video]

#98

Post by ekidd »

ldjkfkdsjnv wrote: post #3

How to get rich in tech as a mediocre programmer: 1. Transfer to a TPM/QA Manager role at somewhere like Amazon or Microsoft. Bar is much lower to get into this role. 2. Get hired into a higher level than you could in a SWE role. 3. Transfer within the company to being an SDM 4. Now you are one level higher, in a management role, that would have taken you 5+ years of grinding and some luck to get into. 5. Spend a few…

> So the CEO can sit on his hands the whole time the product is developed, but then does reap huge gains.

I think this is almost always false. And I say this as someone who has worked with many startups, and who has been both a lead engineer and a CTO.

I have seen so many startups fail because either:

1. They cannot talk to customers, or

2. They cannot close deals.

It is absolutely shocking how many startups have put in 3 years of heroic engineering effort, but still don't even know the job title of the person who would make the actual decision to buy their software.

But if you have a non-technical CEO who can convince 10 potential customers to sign a non-binding letter of intent, then you're in the game. Take that a competent investor and they'll find you a CTO.

Re: How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer [video]

#99

Post by aleph_minus_one »

ldjkfkdsjnv wrote: post #66
dilyevsky wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a nice fantasy but most technically minded folks will quickly discover that political savviness required to pull this off is in fact a skill and the one they generally don't possess. Also, watch the hands: > 2. Get hired into a higher level than you could in a SWE role.

Its not a fantasy, this is path represents a huge percentage of managers/higher ups in software

> Its not a fantasy, this is path represents a huge percentage of managers/higher ups in software

It's also a part of the reason why at least historically there is such an insane hate for managers in hacker culture.

Re: How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer [video]

#100

Post by AmpsterMan »

ldjkfkdsjnv wrote: post #3

How to get rich in tech as a mediocre programmer: 1. Transfer to a TPM/QA Manager role at somewhere like Amazon or Microsoft. Bar is much lower to get into this role. 2. Get hired into a higher level than you could in a SWE role. 3. Transfer within the company to being an SDM 4. Now you are one level higher, in a management role, that would have taken you 5+ years of grinding and some luck to get into. 5. Spend a few…

I did this by mistake. Got hired as a QA, transferred to dev in six months. I wouldn't technically qualify for similar roles in my company were I to apply from the outside.
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