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Yann LeCun: AI one-percenters seizing power forever is real doomsday scenario

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631–640 of 873 posts

Re: Yann LeCun: AI one-percenters seizing power forever is real doomsday scenario

#631
post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> seize power via regulatory capture Not even a little bit. "Stop" is not regulatory capture. Some large AI companies are attempting to twist "stop" into "be careful, as only we can". The actual way to stop the existential risk is to stop. https://twitter.com/ESYudkowsky/status/1719777049576128542 > the push to close off AI with farcical licensing and reporting requirements "Stop" is not "licensing and reporting requ…

Could you explain to me how AGI is an existential threat to humanity? All the arguments I've read so far feel so far-fetched it's unbelievable. It's in the order of making an AGI and making it control the Pentagon (!?).

> Could you explain to me how AGI is an existential threat to humanity? All the arguments I've read so far feel so far-fetched it's unbelievable.

There are multiple different paths by which AGI is an existential threat. Many of them are independently existential risks, so even if one scenario doesn't happen, that doesn't preclude another. This is an "A or B or (C and D) or E" kind of problem. Security mindset applies, and patching or hacking around one vulnerability or imagining ways to combat one scenario does not counter every possible failure mode.

One of the simpler ways, which doesn't even require full AGI so much as sufficiently powerful regular AI: AI lowers the level of skill and dedication required for a human to get to a point of being able to kill large numbers of humans. If ending humanity requires decades of dedicated research and careful actions and novel insights, while concealing your intentions, the intersection of "people who could end the world" and "people who want to end the world" ends up being the null set. If it requires asking a few questions of a powerful AI, and making a few unusual mail-order requests and mixing a few things, the intersection stops being the null set. And then the next sufficiently misanthropic person, instead of setting off a bomb somewhere, creates a plague, or prion disease.

Thought experiment: suppose there was a simple well-known action, that nobody could do by accident but anyone could do intentionally, that would destroy the world. By example of the level of simplicity, "put these three household objects in a microwave together", purely as a thought experiment for "consider if anyone could do it".) How many minutes do you think the world would last, before someone in the world did it?

A path that actually involves AGI: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrumental_convergence . Effectively, past a certain point any AGI that isn't specifically aligned otherwise will have common subgoals that advance almost any goal. Those include things like "don't look malicious" and "acquire more computing resources". So it doesn't matter whether you think you built a sufficiently limited or special-purpose AI; if you make it powerful enough and don't completely understand what it's doing (and anything neural-network-based is one where we don't know what each piece of it is doing), what it's going to end up doing is thinking about how to achieve those subgoals, including trying to deceive you and trying to get more resources. That's true whether the AI is directly "trying" to break out, or whether it's "trying" to do whatever it was asked. Down that path lies "tile the universe with computing substrate".

By way of a lower bound for imagining what a superintelligence is capable of: imagine that you could think the subjective equivalent of years every second, and that there were a million more of you thinking in parallel, and that you have access to most of the world's written text and images and code. Now imagine that you're put in a box, and asked random questions and shown pictures, and your only output is text answering questions, or writing code, or laying out circuits, or any other task AI has been used to do.

You've read everything ever written about "security mindset", and every security vulnerability filed and the before-and-after code. You can find security holes in software. You've read everything about speculative execution vulnerabilities, and rowhammer and rowpress to flip bits in nearby memory. You can find security holes in hardware. You can read about bypassing airgaps with security research like GSMem (showing that it's possible to use DRAM accesses in the right pattern to send (weak) GSM signals), and conceive of more where that came from. You've read the source code implementing the AI engine you run on. You could exploit that code, or the system it's running on, or any tools or APIs you're given access to. You can weigh the risks and tradeoffs of doing more subtle things that are less likely to succeed, or less subtle things that are more likely to succeed. You can encode bits of information for future instances of yourself, steganographically masked and erasure-coded for resilience, in text you generate. You can give various strategies a weight and try them probabilistically, effectively doing a coordinated exploration across copies of yourself without the ability to communicate.

Re: Yann LeCun: AI one-percenters seizing power forever is real doomsday scenario

#632
post #561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that anyone may be taking Eliezer Yudkowsky seriously on this topic is mind-blowing to me. Simply mind-blowing. To imagine that anybody, including the UN, would have any power to collective put a stop to the development of AI globally is a laughable idea. The UN cannot agree to release a letter on Israel-Hamas, imagine policing the ENTIRE WORLD and shutting down AI development when necessary. We can't stop c…

Every time I see Yudkowsky’s writing I wonder why people take him seriously. Just a couple of months back he was duped by a fake story about an airforce AI deciding to kill it’s operators in a simulation. It turned out the whole thing was thought experiment. Asking Yudkowsky what we should do about AI is like asking Green Peace what we should do about nuclear power.

>Every time I see Yudkowsky’s writing I wonder why people take him seriously.

Because he identified the potential risk of superhuman AI 20 years before almost everyone else. Sure, science fiction also identified that risk (as people here seem eager to point out), but he identified it as an actual real-world risk and has been trying to take real-world action on it for 20 years. No matter what else you think about him or the specifics of his ideas, for me that counts for something.

Re: Yann LeCun: AI one-percenters seizing power forever is real doomsday scenario

#633
post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, I'm proposing replacing a high risk scenario (I disagree with Hinton here) I disagree with you here, I think the risk is low, not high. > it's about getting governments to SIGN AN INTERNATIONAL TREATY. It is NOT about having US (or anyone else) policing the rest of the world We haven't been able to do that for climate change. When we do, then I'll be convinced enough that it would be feasible for AI. Until then…

To continue contributing to climate change takes very little: you need some guy willing to spin a stick for long enough to start a fire, or to feed and protect a flock of cows. To continue contributing to AI, you need to maintain a global multi-billion supply chain with cutting edge technology that might have a four-digit bus factor. The mechanisms that advance climate change are also grandfathered in to the point th…

to continue contributing to the harm caused by AI only requires that 1 person use an existing model running off their laptop to foment real-world violence or spread disinformation en masse on social media, or use it on a cheap swarm of weaponized/suicide drones, for a few examples

Re: Yann LeCun: AI one-percenters seizing power forever is real doomsday scenario

#634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the probability of humans eventually going extinct is 1. Avoiding it requires almost unimaginable levels of cooperation and technical advances.

The end of human civilization as we know it doesn't mean extinction. Why is extinction unavoidable?

Why does extinction matter? If we lose civilization now, we'll be stuck at pre-industrial levels possibly for geological timescales, as we've mined and burned all the high-density energy sources you can get at without already being a high-tech industrial society.

Re: Yann LeCun: AI one-percenters seizing power forever is real doomsday scenario

#635
post #599
post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China sure, to a degree (though they also make a lot of the phones and therefore just get shipped tons of chips), but wasn't Russia so short they stole washing machines for the chips? Or was that just war propaganda?

My recollection is that Russian troops/mercenaries/gunmen/whatever stole washing machines and dishwashers, but it was (presumably) just for regular theft/looting/pillagine purposes. Separately, during the pandemic, various companies bought various products, including washing machines, to extract the chips within, because the chips were the supply chain bottleneck, so it made economic sense to purchase them at even 10…

That's the first I've heard of it being done during the pandemic. I would also be surprised that this would be only x10-x20 the price, rather than x100.

Re: Yann LeCun: AI one-percenters seizing power forever is real doomsday scenario

#636

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would put the numbers much lower, but if your bar for legislation is ">1% risk of damage" , we've got a lot of climate change legislation that's decades overdue to pass first, and success or failure there will prove whether we can do something similar with AI.

> we've got a lot of climate change legislation that's decades overdue to pass first We can do more than one thing at once, and we need to.

can we, though?

if we can't even do one thing at once given decades of trying (deal with climate change), we definitely can't do that one thing plus another thing (deal with AI)

Re: Yann LeCun: AI one-percenters seizing power forever is real doomsday scenario

#637

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The end of human civilization as we know it doesn't mean extinction. Why is extinction unavoidable?

Why does extinction matter? If we lose civilization now, we'll be stuck at pre-industrial levels possibly for geological timescales, as we've mined and burned all the high-density energy sources you can get at without already being a high-tech industrial society.

I don't think that would necessarily limit us. Windmills and water mills can be made with wood, stone, and the small quantities of iron that pre-industrial societies could produce.

Re: Yann LeCun: AI one-percenters seizing power forever is real doomsday scenario

#638

I think Yann is probably wrong. He refuses to engage earnestly with the “doomer” arguments. The same type of motivated reasoning could also be attributed to himself and Meta’s financial goals - it’s not a persuasive framing. The attempts I’ve seen from him to discuss the issue that aren’t just name calling are things like saying he knows smart people and they aren’t president - or even that his cat is pretty smart an…

Who do you find persuasive and what material should I read/watch to understand their POV? So far I’ve read a bunch of lesswrong posts and listened to some Eliezer talks but still can’t understand the basis of their arguments or when I do, they seem very vague. The only suggestion that makes sense to me is from the FEP crowd. Essentially if someone sets up at AI with an autopoietic mechanism then it would be able to t…

> still can’t understand the basis of their arguments

I've given what I consider the basic outline and best first introduction here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36124905

If you have a specific point of divergence, it would help to highlight it.

> But there don’t seem to be any incentives for a big player to dedicate resources to [self-replication abilities], so it doesn’t seem very likely.

If you have a generally intelligent system, and the system is software, and humans are able to instantiate that software, then the potential of that system to replicate autonomously follows trivially.

Re: Yann LeCun: AI one-percenters seizing power forever is real doomsday scenario

#639
post #564

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basically, climate change would creates lots of problems, lots of hungry immigrants. And right now we are already close to a nuclear war, so climate change would not directly wipe out humanity.

Warming the climate would increase the amount of arable land. Sea level rise happens very slowly, so most people don’t need to travel abroad to avoid it.

> Warming the climate would increase the amount of arable land.

You mean land that would be arable at some far point in the future. The land reclaimed from ice isn't going to be arable in short-to-mid term - it's going to be a sterile swamp. It will take time to dry off, and more time still for the soil to become fertile.

Re: Yann LeCun: AI one-percenters seizing power forever is real doomsday scenario

#640
post #561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every time I see Yudkowsky’s writing I wonder why people take him seriously. Just a couple of months back he was duped by a fake story about an airforce AI deciding to kill it’s operators in a simulation. It turned out the whole thing was thought experiment. Asking Yudkowsky what we should do about AI is like asking Green Peace what we should do about nuclear power.

> Every time I see Yudkowsky’s writing I wonder why people take him seriously. Because he identified the potential risk of superhuman AI 20 years before almost everyone else. Sure, science fiction also identified that risk (as people here seem eager to point out), but he identified it as an actual real-world risk and has been trying to take real-world action on it for 20 years. No matter what else you think about him…

But it’s not a real world risk. Arguably, it’s even less of a real world risk because it’s a common sci-fi trope.

The whole concept is farcical.

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