As the public begins to believe Google isn’t as useful, what happens to SEO? • Hacker News Board

Re: As the public begins to believe Google isn’t as useful, what happens to SEO?

#211

Post by underwater » Thu, Nov 02, 2023, 4:05 AM UTC

Semaphor wrote: post #207

reactordev wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are using it right however your bias is evident on the results. A 20-something will just scroll through the blog content to get to the recipe at the end. No huss, no fuss. In fact, they’ll open multiple tabs of search results to compare recipes in the time it takes you to gawk at the fact that you have to scroll to the end. Where is the recipe? Why is there a video? Table of contents? No, a 20-something will just…

> A 20-something will just scroll through the blog content to get to the recipe at the end. No huss, no fuss. In fact, they’ll open multiple tabs of search results to compare recipes in the time it takes you to gawk at the fact that you have to scroll to the end. Uh, I do that and I’m 37. But I don’t scroll, I click the button that says "recipe" that’s on pretty much every recipe site. IMO this is mainly about being…

The state of recipe sites is 100% driven by Google. Those sites add the fluff because that is what Google rewards. The actual recipe quality doesn't matter. If I use my example, the page contains:

* Bio of the author - Google SEO rewards content written by "real humans", so this is there to appease the bot.

* Giant images of overnight oats - This helps the page rank highly on Google Image Search.

* Fluffy paragraphs - "The beauty of overnight oats is that you can make them as simple or creative as you’d like. The base recipe is delicious, and filling all on its own. But if you’d like to spruce it up, you can add a variety of toppings and mix-ins, including fresh fruit, nuts, seeds, spices, jams, and more". Is that supposed to be text written for other humans? Google rewards original content, which means recipe sites need to include massive paragraphs of filler to appear like an authoritative source.

* Ads - Gotta make the money.

* More fluff "Here’s a few reasons why you should to whip up this recipe today…" - Again, this is not text written for humans.

* Repeat the fluff, pictures and ads approximately 5 times.

* Common questions "Do you have to use yogurt?" - Trying to appeal to Google Instant Answer searches.

* Recipe - Finally!

* Recipe rating - This allows the site to put a star rating and review count on Google, again, for SEO

So, 95% of the content and functionality of that page is an attempt to convince Google into sending traffic, or ads generating revenue, rather than serving the end user.

Content on the web has dramatically changed from 20 years ago because publishers are creating content for a broken machine and not for other humans. This negative feedback loop is hurting the web, and not just Google. This leaves the door open for upstarts like ChatGPT or TikTok to gain mindshare.

Re: As the public begins to believe Google isn’t as useful, what happens to SEO?

#212

Post by underwater » Thu, Nov 02, 2023, 4:11 AM UTC

bfung wrote: post #208

underwater wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, Google results are trash. Here are three examples from this week: - I Googled "speed work running", wanting some workout suggestions. I visited four or five results that either didn't have concrete suggestions, were poorly written, or overly verbose. I ended my search with little faith that I was getting good advice. I typed the same thing into ChatGPT and got a suggestion of 6 different workouts that all seemed…

While reading your Google examples, I don’t think I could parse out what you were intending as a human. Perhaps different keywords would work better? For example, “speed work running”, were you looking to improve sprinting? (I’m not a runner, so it almost reads to me like “working fast while on a treadmill”). Reading the rest of your example, maybe “sprint workouts” would give better results? (40+yr old guy here, Goo…

"Speed work" is a class of running drills. The term is very common in running. I'll let ChatGPT explain. This was its response was given the same prompt, when I specifically asked it to give me options it's answer was more specific:

Speed work in running is a type of training that focuses on improving your running speed and anaerobic fitness. It involves various structured workouts and drills designed to increase your stride turnover and overall pace. Speed work is essential for athletes who want to enhance their performance in races or simply become faster runners.

Common forms of speed work in running include:

Interval Training: Interval workouts involve alternating between periods of high-intensity running (fast) and rest or recovery jogging. For example, you might run fast for 1 minute and then jog or walk for 1-2 minutes to recover. This process is repeated multiple times.

Fartlek Training: Fartlek, which means "speed play" in Swedish, is an unstructured form of speed work. During a fartlek run, you mix bursts of faster running with slower paces or jogging. You can do this based on how you feel or choose landmarks as your guide.

Hill Repeats: Running uphill at a high intensity is an excellent way to build strength and speed. Hill repeat workouts involve running up a hill at a fast pace and then jogging or walking back down to recover. This is repeated for a set number of repetitions.

Tempo Runs: Tempo runs are sustained efforts at a "comfortably hard" pace, typically just below your anaerobic threshold. This helps improve your lactate threshold and race pace.

Track Workouts: These are structured speed sessions done on a running track. Common track workouts include 400-meter repeats, 800-meter repeats, and 1,600-meter repeats, where you run at a fast, consistent pace and take rest intervals between each repetition.

Strides: Strides are short, fast runs of about 100 meters that help improve running form and leg turnover. They are typically done at the end of an easy run.

It's essential to incorporate speed work into your training regimen gradually to avoid overuse injuries and adapt to the increased intensity. Make sure to warm up properly and cool down after each speed workout. Consult with a coach or experienced runner to create a personalized training plan that suits your goals and fitness level. Additionally, listen to your body and allow for sufficient recovery between speed sessions to prevent overtraining.

Re: As the public begins to believe Google isn’t as useful, what happens to SEO?

#213

Post by jrumbut » Thu, Nov 02, 2023, 4:15 AM UTC

algorias wrote: post #183

Aunche wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never really found docs particularly useful. Usually, I just want a few simple examples to get the gist of how something works and docs tend to be very bad job of that. Meanwhile, the W3Schools SEO spam HN disdains tends to good job of that. These days I use ChatGPT though.

Eh, I've had the opposite experience. If you search for anything slightly obscure in a language like Java, you'll get dozens of spam sites aimed at beginners that answer a much more basic question than the one you asked. That's because Java searches cater to a large population of people who can barely code.

Java is particularly rough because there are several populations of Java users (students, Android developers, enterprise developers, among others) and their coding standards are universes apart.

Re: As the public begins to believe Google isn’t as useful, what happens to SEO?

#214

Post by jrumbut » Thu, Nov 02, 2023, 4:21 AM UTC

loveparade wrote: post #198

wslh wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When was the change? These pages were indexed by Google years ago, Google removed them obviously, and the search worked fine in the past. You are saying one day you use your mobile phone for calling and the next day the device only work for calling 0800-*?

It's not yesterday, it was 20 years ago when Google excelled at exact keyword matches. It has been a constant evolution away from that. I hate the new Google as much as others, but if you don't adapt your search habits for 20 years when the whole ecosystem around you has been obviously changing, that's kind of on you. Just use another search engine that fits your use case. Personally I use Kagi and I haven't touched…

Does Kagi support queries like site, inurl, intitle, etc or have some similar capabilities?

Re: As the public begins to believe Google isn’t as useful, what happens to SEO?

#215

Post by pclmulqdq » Thu, Nov 02, 2023, 4:31 AM UTC

underwater wrote: post #212

bfung wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While reading your Google examples, I don’t think I could parse out what you were intending as a human. Perhaps different keywords would work better? For example, “speed work running”, were you looking to improve sprinting? (I’m not a runner, so it almost reads to me like “working fast while on a treadmill”). Reading the rest of your example, maybe “sprint workouts” would give better results? (40+yr old guy here, Goo…

"Speed work" is a class of running drills. The term is very common in running. I'll let ChatGPT explain. This was its response was given the same prompt, when I specifically asked it to give me options it's answer was more specific: Speed work in running is a type of training that focuses on improving your running speed and anaerobic fitness. It involves various structured workouts and drills designed to increase you…

If you search "speed work running drills" on Google, you get relevant results. It kind of sounds like you are cherry picking the "bad prompts" you sent to Google and comparing them to good prompts sent to GPT-4.

Re: As the public begins to believe Google isn’t as useful, what happens to SEO?

#216

Post by charlie0 » Thu, Nov 02, 2023, 4:38 AM UTC

7speter wrote: post #186

pclmulqdq wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The trick is that Google actually works great. It works better than before. It just doesn't work in the way that we (highly educated and technical people) want. We all laughed at our parents and grandparents for typing full sentence questions into the search bar in 2005 instead of carefully crafted incantations with keywords, "site:" labels and other such things. Young people often use full sentences today because th…

We have google bard and chatgpt. We should have old google too.

Kagi? Personally, I use mostly ChatGPT, but if I wasn't using that I'd be using Kagi or something like it.

Re: As the public begins to believe Google isn’t as useful, what happens to SEO?

#217

Post by dicriseg » Thu, Nov 02, 2023, 4:40 AM UTC

fsckboy wrote: post #38

I'm old, very educated, very experienced, technical, etc. My assistant is young and none of the above. She finds everything very quickly through internet searches. However-it-is that google is interpreting search terms, that's how her brain works. I told her about a house I drove by that looked like a cool Halloween house. While I was still telling her basics about it, she was already pulling up pictures of it. I had…

I’m in my 40s so Google wasn’t my first search engine but it’s definitely been what I’ve used the most. And I do think it has changed similar how to you describe it. But I see the change more as:

You used to go to Google and effectively be asking, “Google, find me information about X.” Today you’re implicitly asking, “Google, show me ads related to X.” You just kind of accept that what it shows you will be the thing that is most fine tuned to appear most related to X - and the most common reason to do that fine tuning in the first place is to deliver an ad.

So you gotta search in natural language like an ad, and hope that someone in that first page of results decided to SEO some particularly good content so they could get you there to look at more ads.

Re: As the public begins to believe Google isn’t as useful, what happens to SEO?

#218

Post by ravetcofx » Thu, Nov 02, 2023, 4:42 AM UTC

mikewarot wrote: post #187

Long ago there was a slashdot story about someone who returned to their office to find a co-worker looking at a long printout with a number of peaks circled on it. This printout turned out to be a frequency spectra derived from a covert recording device monitoring the 3 phase feed into the facility. This turned out to be useful for estimating Uranium enrichment yield. I thought it was a damned cool story, but now I c…

I tried a bunch of keyword combinations with site:slashdot.org with no luck. I wonder if the story was removed

Re: As the public begins to believe Google isn’t as useful, what happens to SEO?

#219

Post by smcin » Thu, Nov 02, 2023, 4:44 AM UTC

A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #170

neotrope wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Noticed this as well. I've gotten so frustrated with poor results for things I need, I've been using "Verbatim" mode to force Google to stop interpreting my terms. This was a pain, so ended up installing an extension that forces verbatim on every search. https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/verbatim-search/oc...

Recently, I searched "(-)-BPAP" -- with the quotes -- looking for the chemical benzofuranylpropylaminopentane, which is typically referred to as (-)-BPAP. EVERY result was for a BiPAP ventilator. So I tried verbatim. It still didn't work. Verbatim + quotation marks. Still nothing. I guess New Google Search simply doesn't recognize the "(-)-" part of the search term. But this is characteristic of its recent performanc…

> Google Search simply doesn't recognize the "(-)-" part of the search term.

AFAIK, Google search has always ignored parentheses and most punctuation symbols (other than ones that are special to it, like +require_term -exclude_term "...")

https://support.google.com/websearch/thread/71287971/does-go...

Re: As the public begins to believe Google isn’t as useful, what happens to SEO?

#220

Post by smcin » Thu, Nov 02, 2023, 4:52 AM UTC

THENATHE wrote: post #155

LtWorf wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you call "working" showing me an endless stream of blogs of some dude, an automatically translated russian clone of stackoverflow, a completely unrelated stackoverflow question, above the actual official documentation that it should be showing me… sure then it works.

If I wanted the docs, I would get the docs. The blogs are useful because the documentation is largely unhelpful due to being overly simplicity or extremely nondescript. The blogs are where it's at because you can see how someone else used that thing

That's too generalized and IME not even true for say, Python docs, or regexes, or Gnu tools, or HTML. Most bootcamp/academy/coder-type blogs/copycats are aimed at giving only a tiny fraction of the information, but with examples (sometimes only very simple ones that cover only the most basic use-cases, and no links or mention of the other missing 90% of information (e.g.: "to read more about regexes, see ...").

"site:docs.python.org/3/ term" gets much better results. (You have to add the site: qualifier, due to SEO it's no longer just enough to say "Python docs". Hence "If I wanted the docs, I would get the docs." is not as trivial to do as you suggest. Things actually went beyond annoying to downright dangerous when searches for "Python 3.10 " were drowned out by older e.g. (3.6-3.8) version SEO stuff, instead of the latest Python docs.)

Queries like "awk by example" or "egrep by example" or "jq by example" seem to hit the sweetspot between completeness and working example: they give you third-party non-commercial unaffiliated expert bloggers not stuffed with upsell links to a bootcamp. Just pure information sites.

Having mentioned all this, now I've probably inadvertently cursed those sites...