Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, but you wouldn't want to measure lines of code.
Nor would you want to measure student performance by class attendance. What's your point?
To Fix America's Education Bureaucracy, We Need to Destroy It
21–30 of 76 posts
Re: To Fix America's Education Bureaucracy, We Need to Destroy It
#22Earlier quoted context omitted.
From the nytimes article: "But to union officials, the right to an impartial hearing is sacrosanct, to protect teachers from losing their livelihoods because a principal or a student might have an ax to grind." An impartial hearing -- sounds good to me. We don't know that all the teachers in that article did those things you said. You're implying that we should fire them and make them leave that career, just because…
While putting teachers in the same boat as waiters, programmers and CEOs does sound awful, I think children will still wind up being educated. Remember, the goal here is not to ensure teachers are never incorrectly fired, it's to educate children. If a few teachers are incorrectly fired, but student performance goes up, that's a win. This is what happens in many industries. For example, if a trader or hedge fund mana…
I am very concerned about labour rights, as that will be very important in a world of ever-fewer jobs with more competition for those jobs, for the students when they grow up, and for now, when their parents need jobs to support their family.
If students can get teachers fired with just an accusation,
* The students will end up with a fragmented education from a chain of supply teachers and replacements.
* Teachers will have to pander to students even more than they already do, for fear that a disgruntled student will decide to cry wolf. Lessons will focus on fun, not education, and teachers will be unable to stop students from disrupting class.
The comparison to a trader or hedge fund manager doesn't stand, as the market cannot decide to deliberately move against him out of spite, a need for power, or boredom.
[EDIT: Forgot to mention that private companies are more motivated to care about the product. Public school administrators would be more concerned about 'liability' and eliminating a source of 'hassle', than with the quality of the product. There's little incentive for them to work to keep a good teacher who's been unfairly accused.
The comparison to programmers is also not appropriate, for those same reasons.]
Re: To Fix America's Education Bureaucracy, We Need to Destroy It
#23After reading yummyfajitas' comment, I wish I could take back my upvote, because he's right: it's one thing to say the structure of the process itself is so byzantine and brittle that schools suck, but it's quite another to say we should remove measurable goals as well. If I didn't know better, I'd call this a disinformation piece: deliberately conflating two concepts into one large rant in order to try to join the t…
The thing about measurable goals in teaching is that all of them are awful. Economic psychology teaches us that bad incentives are worse than no incentives. The incentives being promulgated are things like "higher test scores" or "more kids graduating" so the system aligns itself towards teaching the test while simultaneously lowering the bar for everything else. So let's talk about the software analogy. In software,…
I learned to fly people around in airplanes using various instructional techniques, including at times studying for the test. So do most airline pilots. Seems to work for them. The military has been training people for over 200 years with measurable teaching goals. In fact, some of the best teachers are ex-military. I could continue if you'd like.
"...if you're working anywhere worth working--there'll be a much higher non-formal bar set by your manager, your team, your customers if you're in contact with them..."
You are throwing out all requirements from any outside bureaucratic structure and then assuming that some informal standard of quality is going to fill the void. I don't know what your experiences are, but this kind of "let's see what happens" mentality doesn't trend toward good things. It's a tragedy of the commons problem. Why do a little bit extra here if somebody else in the organization is going to look at it anyway?
Instead, we find that really smart people are great at arguing on and on about technical stuff that has nothing to do with delivery. The only thing that naturally limits this is having testable work due on a fixed date. Otherwise, people would much rather create little complex systems that mirror their favorite technical book or management philosophy. There are no fights that are as vicious as academic fights over the smallest things.
The answer here is simple: if it's not measurable, we do not pay for it. I am sure there are lots of teams of really great people leading fulfilling lives creating quality in an ad-hoc manner that will continue doing so. We call these folks artists. There are also people who live the same kind of lives but have measurable results at the end of their creative process. These folks are usually called artistic professionals.
Teachers cannot be artists. The public cannot afford them to be so. They can certainly be artistic professionals, but like other artistic professionals there will be some kind of loose structure around their work product and it will be judged at regular intervals. This measure will be centered solely around students, which is natural because the only reason any teacher would be paid would be because of a student.
There might be a great argument about how the current tests are bad. But I think that's another discussion.
As a side note, and I want to make sure I hit this the right way, I do not care about teachers as such. Yes, I care about the dignity and humanity and kindness we show to all people, but teachers do not get some special place above, say, policemen. Or doctors. They're just like the rest of us. If you try to split up each profession and say we should treat them all in special ways due to the nature of their jobs, it gets much too complex for me to manage. Instead, when I meet somebody we pay our taxes to help us out, I usually try to say "thank you"
It doesn't matter to me whether we employ one teacher or ten million. If we could teach all of the students of the country with one teacher, that would be fine with me. The same goes for those other professions.
Re: To Fix America's Education Bureaucracy, We Need to Destroy It
#24Re: To Fix America's Education Bureaucracy, We Need to Destroy It
#25Earlier quoted context omitted.
If one were to follow the link, one would find the following: The American Jobs Act proposes a major investment that will modernize at least 35,000 public schools, and support 280,000 teacher jobs nationwide. See what impact the Act will have in your state, and read a complete overview of the American Jobs Act here. There is nothing about a surplus of 280,000 teachers. This is a libertarian distortion. Disgusting.
The claim is that there are or will be 280,000 unemployed teachers. Unemployment is surplus labor. The standard prescription for surplus labor is to reduce the cost.
The result is that this country's local governments are spending much less on education than they were a few years ago, and therefore employ many fewer teachers. Because they have a mandate to educate basically the same number of children as before the crisis, this means larger class sizes, etc.
To suggest that these unemployed teachers are 'surplus' in this environment is to mis-characterize the situation almost to the point of dishonesty.
Re: To Fix America's Education Bureaucracy, We Need to Destroy It
#26The article unnecessarily conflates two separate pieces of the bureaucracy. The first is management of inputs - work rules, prescribed teaching methods, etc. The second is management of outputs - measurement of student performance and penalties/rewards for teachers who harm/improve this. The first can certainly be scrapped at the global level (though of course experimentation should continue at lower levels). The sec…
Where, specifically, does the article conflate what you are saying? Yes, it would be stupid to not give a teacher or programmer instructions, but we're talking about each individual school not being able to do this, right? Someone at the state level has already decided they want the federal funds tied to complying with whatever initiative and already passed down the order to each school.
They explicitly list both work rules and the need to satisfy minimum test scores in the 6'th and 7'th paragraph.
Yes, it would be stupid to not give a teacher or programmer instructions, but we're talking about each individual school not being able to do this, right?
Right. Similarly, you don't hire a contractor, and ask him to write the spec for whatever he wants to build. He'll just cook up some easy to meet standard and report success when it's met.
Re: To Fix America's Education Bureaucracy, We Need to Destroy It
#27Earlier quoted context omitted.
Nor would you want to measure student performance by class attendance. What's your point?
That many of the metrics the school system uses are terrible ones, which lead to pathological behavior.
Something interesting that I've observed is that most of the people complaining about metrics are really complaining about the goals of the system. I.e., many people want the school to increase mean(student scores), and then complain when the school attempts to increase count(student score > CUTOFF). If you want the school to have different goals, say so. Don't blame the goals of the system on the existence of metrics.
Re: To Fix America's Education Bureaucracy, We Need to Destroy It
#28After reading yummyfajitas' comment, I wish I could take back my upvote, because he's right: it's one thing to say the structure of the process itself is so byzantine and brittle that schools suck, but it's quite another to say we should remove measurable goals as well. If I didn't know better, I'd call this a disinformation piece: deliberately conflating two concepts into one large rant in order to try to join the t…
The thing about measurable goals in teaching is that all of them are awful. Economic psychology teaches us that bad incentives are worse than no incentives. The incentives being promulgated are things like "higher test scores" or "more kids graduating" so the system aligns itself towards teaching the test while simultaneously lowering the bar for everything else. So let's talk about the software analogy. In software,…
Re: To Fix America's Education Bureaucracy, We Need to Destroy It
#29After reading yummyfajitas' comment, I wish I could take back my upvote, because he's right: it's one thing to say the structure of the process itself is so byzantine and brittle that schools suck, but it's quite another to say we should remove measurable goals as well. If I didn't know better, I'd call this a disinformation piece: deliberately conflating two concepts into one large rant in order to try to join the t…
As a customer you're looking for a one-off administrative web application. In several years it's delivered (along with a warehouse of paperwork) in all of its 100% unit tested glory. As required by Federal Web Compliance 625, it uses EJB and JSP against an Oracle database. One of the tables has data duplication, requiring Federal Normalization Exemption 835.
It's so late because there was a brief controversy during development. One of the developers had increased his productivity by using a code generator to achieve 100% coverage. Suddenly he had a lot of time on his hands--he spent it refactoring the code, building prototypes, knocking out requirements, etc. Due to management oversight his transgression wasn't identified for several months, and the mysterious increase in productivity was hailed by local politicians as a shining example of how the system is working. Once identified, he was escorted out of the building, and a new developer had to rewrite his code from scratch. There was a brief splash in the local papers but that blew over, thank god...
During the meeting in which the resulting steaming pile of crap is delivered to you, the customer, one of the programmers breaks down crying. You can't put your arm around him and comfort him because it's against the law.
Re: To Fix America's Education Bureaucracy, We Need to Destroy It
#30Earlier quoted context omitted.
unions certainly do nothing to protect the students from the teachers, if the NYC area is any example. They exaggerate the costs of educating students and usually exert too much influence over local elections thereby insuring their continued existence and near immunity to control. Unions operate to serve themselves, their political contacts next, then their members; they certainly could care less about the business.…
I thought public school teachers in the US were considered to be underpaid? Certainly compared to public school teachers in South Korea, they don't earn that much compared to the national average salary. I don't believe there are sufficient laws in the US to protect teachers. The US's employment laws are poorly-regarded in the rest of the Western world. And what about at-will employment states? Teachers would be fire…
Teachers' modest salaries, have, for a long time, been countered with good benefits in other areas: pensions, health care, vacation time, job security. Most working Americans in the private sector have none of those things anymore, so the right points at the teachers and says "see, this is the problem right here, these public sector health plans and pensions!"