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AV1 video codec gains broader hardware support

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Re: AV1 video codec gains broader hardware support

#201

Post by dylan604 »

repelsteeltje wrote: post #198
dylan604 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Anecdotally, consider that Apple's HTTP Live Streaming protocol (till version 6) relied on MPEG2TS This sounds like you might be confusing that MPEG2TS might have something to do with the video encoding instead of it solely being the way the video/audio elementary streams are wrapped together into a single contained format. The transport stream was designed specifically for an unreliable streaming type of delivery v…

> There is nothing wrong with using a TS stream for HLS that makes it inferior. Not wrong , but a bit surprising. As you mention, transport streams are designed to operate over unreliable connections (like satellite or terrestrial transmission). Reliability is not an issue with with HTTP or TCP. Other than being archaic, some disadvantages are that TS has somewhat more overhead than (f)MP4 and poor ergonomics for ran…

>Reliability is not an issue with with HTTP or TCP.

We seem to be confusing what reliable means here. Yes, HTTP/TCP can reliably transmit data in the fact that if packets are missed they will be resent so that you can be assured that the data will eventually be delivered. However, that doesn't do well for real time streaming of data that is necessary to be received in order. That's why UDP was made.

>If it were up to me to design a streaming protocol like DASH, HLS, Flash, or SmoothStreaming I'd instantly choose mp4 (or plain elementary streams). I wouldn't even consider TS or PS unless some spec forced me to.

Well, it's a good thing we didn't have to wait for you to come around and design a streaming protocol and we've been able to use it for the past ~20 years with the technology that was available at the time. Perfect is the enemy of progress.

Re: AV1 video codec gains broader hardware support

#202

Post by my123 »

shmerl wrote: post #192
snapplebobapple wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thay doesnt work on patent trolls becausr all they do is sue people. They have no products of their own to build their own patent liability risk so they arent kept in line. The solution to patent trolls is pretty simple yet impossible. Make having a patent contingent on having a product in the market that uses the patent with a short grace period of a few years. If you have no product for sale you can point to after…

Trolls don't like fighting in courts, because most of their patents are utter junk. They rely on protection racket intimidation when courts are avoided and they are paid for that. So while fighting them in court is costly since it requires research of prior art and doing all the necessary work to invalidate those junk patents, it's still often a proper tactic to destroy them.

The Sisvel AV1 patent pool has more than a thousand patents...

Re: AV1 video codec gains broader hardware support

#203

Post by repelsteeltje »

dylan604 wrote: post #201
repelsteeltje wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is nothing wrong with using a TS stream for HLS that makes it inferior. Not wrong , but a bit surprising. As you mention, transport streams are designed to operate over unreliable connections (like satellite or terrestrial transmission). Reliability is not an issue with with HTTP or TCP. Other than being archaic, some disadvantages are that TS has somewhat more overhead than (f)MP4 and poor ergonomics for ran…

>Reliability is not an issue with with HTTP or TCP. We seem to be confusing what reliable means here. Yes, HTTP/TCP can reliably transmit data in the fact that if packets are missed they will be resent so that you can be assured that the data will eventually be delivered. However, that doesn't do well for real time streaming of data that is necessary to be received in order. That's why UDP was made. >If it were up to…

> However, that doesn't do well for real time streaming of data that is necessary to be received in order. That's why UDP was made.

Sure, but UDP was not part of the HLS draft https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8216

> Perfect is the enemy of progress.

Touché ;-)

What I meant to point out as odd about Roger Panthos and co.'s decision to build HLS on top of Transport Stream containers is that Apple had already laid the foundation for MP4 with QuickTime.

Since HTTP live streaming was never about anything but HTTP, container capabilities like auto-synchronization offered by mpeg2TS were moot. It would therefore seem logical for Apple to build HLS upon what they already had with QuickTime + iso2 fragments. That was more or less the route Adobe/Macromedia had taken with Flash streaming.

Yet, the choose mpeg2TS (initially only muxing AAC and h264). The reason, historically seems to have been driven primarily by the capabilities of the iphone hardware which supported this out of the box! Separate transport streams for audio and video, WebVTT, elementary stream audio were added much later, and fragmented MP4 was introduced only once HEVC was bolted on.

I'm all for favouring what exists over what's perfect; it's just odd that Apple choose to (initially, at least) regress to 90s technology while rest of world had already adopted superior container.

Re: AV1 video codec gains broader hardware support

#204

Post by shmerl »

my123 wrote: post #202
shmerl wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trolls don't like fighting in courts, because most of their patents are utter junk. They rely on protection racket intimidation when courts are avoided and they are paid for that. So while fighting them in court is costly since it requires research of prior art and doing all the necessary work to invalidate those junk patents, it's still often a proper tactic to destroy them.

The Sisvel AV1 patent pool has more than a thousand patents...

And AOM has deep pockets to bust them or show how it doesn't apply. It's an alliance for a reason - let them work together then. More than a thousand sounds like complete bs already.

Re: AV1 video codec gains broader hardware support

#205

Post by my123 »

shmerl wrote: post #204
my123 wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Sisvel AV1 patent pool has more than a thousand patents...

And AOM has deep pockets to bust them or show how it doesn't apply. It's an alliance for a reason - let them work together then. More than a thousand sounds like complete bs already.

The patent list: https://www.sisvel.com/xlin7ipl485u/7fUBcCW149MkF6Gbp7w7iY/0...

You can't counter sue Sisvel as Sisvel is just a patent pool, they don't make products.

Re: AV1 video codec gains broader hardware support

#206

Post by shmerl »

my123 wrote: post #205
shmerl wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And AOM has deep pockets to bust them or show how it doesn't apply. It's an alliance for a reason - let them work together then. More than a thousand sounds like complete bs already.

The patent list: https://www.sisvel.com/xlin7ipl485u/7fUBcCW149MkF6Gbp7w7iY/0... You can't counter sue Sisvel as Sisvel is just a patent pool, they don't make products.

You can bust their patents in court though if they try to sue. And their pool will start draining into the sewer. Patent trolls don't like that.

Expecting more than thousand patents to apply to AV1 is totally bs.

Re: AV1 video codec gains broader hardware support

#208

Post by FoxBJK »

alwillis wrote: post #195
andrewstuart wrote: post #133

Safari does not support AV1 playback.

> Safari does not support AV1 playback. It will on M3 Macs and iPhone 15 Pro and Pro Max.

I have a 15 Pro. AV1 playback is not working in Safari. I'm trying with this URL: https://bitmovin.com/demos/av1/

Re: AV1 video codec gains broader hardware support

#209

Post by anticensor »

snapplebobapple wrote: post #191
shmerl wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone like MS should have more than enough resources to bust patent trolls in court instead of chickening out. Also, can't whole AOM pool resources to annihilate those trolls? They'll all benefit from it. So this doesn't make sense.

Thay doesnt work on patent trolls becausr all they do is sue people. They have no products of their own to build their own patent liability risk so they arent kept in line. The solution to patent trolls is pretty simple yet impossible. Make having a patent contingent on having a product in the market that uses the patent with a short grace period of a few years. If you have no product for sale you can point to after…

That is actually the case in most of Europe.

Re: AV1 video codec gains broader hardware support

#210

Post by unleaded »

bee_rider wrote: post #81
RicoElectrico wrote: post #52

Is it really _that_ hard to create a generic video decoding DSP whose firmware could be updated? Most codecs are very similar to each other. IIRC Texas Instruments used multicore DSP to decode MPEG back in the 90s. Or maybe we should have written codecs to be amenable towards GPU shader implementation...

I wonder if encode could run on the iGPU? I think, at least, that one of the biggest use-cases for encode is game streamers (is this right?), they should have decent dGPUs anyway, so their iGPU is just sitting there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Quick_Sync_Video ?
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