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The Beer Game -or- Why Apple Can’t Build iPads in the US

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Re: The Beer Game -or- Why Apple Can’t Build iPads in the US

#231

Post by [deleted] »

rbarooah wrote: post #51
simonh wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclosure: I'm a Brit, and my wife is Chinese. Frankly I have no time for flag-waving 'Buy American' and for that matter 'Buy British' favouritism. I've seen the poverty in rural China first hand, industrialisation over there has it's rough edges that need to be addressed, but if we care about world poverty then that means cutting all the jingoistic claptrap and 'allowing' them to earn a better living. There are leg…

Don't you think that decades of isolationist Maoism had more influence on the rural poverty in China than US and British protectionism?

[deleted]

Re: The Beer Game -or- Why Apple Can’t Build iPads in the US

#232

Post by [deleted] »

simonh wrote: post #42
diogenescynic wrote: post #4

Apple could afford to reopen the plants they had in Fremont, they just might not be able to produce 100% of their products there . From the NY Times article he refers to: paying American wages would add up to $65 to each iPhone’s expense. Fender does this--they offer you the choice of a Chinese, Mexican, Japanese, or American made guitar and just price accordingly. I would pay more for an iPhone that I knew was made…

Disclosure: I'm a Brit, and my wife is Chinese. Frankly I have no time for flag-waving 'Buy American' and for that matter 'Buy British' favouritism. I've seen the poverty in rural China first hand, industrialisation over there has it's rough edges that need to be addressed, but if we care about world poverty then that means cutting all the jingoistic claptrap and 'allowing' them to earn a better living. There are leg…

[deleted]

Re: The Beer Game -or- Why Apple Can’t Build iPads in the US

#233

Post by olalonde »

rbarooah wrote: post #216
olalonde wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Straw man.

How so?

Parent didn't argue that American/British protectionism was worse than Mao's isolationism. He simply argued that American/British protectionism was bad for poor people in developing countries.

> A straw man is a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.

It seems to me that you are misrepresenting your opponent's position.

Re: The Beer Game -or- Why Apple Can’t Build iPads in the US

#234

Post by rbarooah »

olalonde wrote: post #233
rbarooah wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How so?

Parent didn't argue that American/British protectionism was worse than Mao's isolationism. He simply argued that American/British protectionism was bad for poor people in developing countries. > A straw man is a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. It seems to me that you are misrepresenting your opponent's position.

Nowhere did I assert that this was the parent's arguement. I didn't represent his position at all.

My question adds context that changes the weight of the parent's assertions. What I wrote isn't even an argument, so it can't be a straw man.

Re: The Beer Game -or- Why Apple Can’t Build iPads in the US

#235

Post by olalonde »

rbarooah wrote: post #234
olalonde wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parent didn't argue that American/British protectionism was worse than Mao's isolationism. He simply argued that American/British protectionism was bad for poor people in developing countries. > A straw man is a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. It seems to me that you are misrepresenting your opponent's position.

Nowhere did I assert that this was the parent's arguement. I didn't represent his position at all. My question adds context that changes the weight of the parent's assertions. What I wrote isn't even an argument, so it can't be a straw man.

By asking a question in the negative form ("don't you think...") you are implicitly asserting what follows is your interlocutor's opinion.

If that's not your intention, don't ask the question in negative form. In this case:

> Do you think that decades of isolationist Maoism had more influence on the rural poverty in China than US and British protectionism?

or even better:

> On another note, do you think that decades of isolationist Maoism had more influence on the rural poverty in China than US and British protectionism?

Re: The Beer Game -or- Why Apple Can’t Build iPads in the US

#236

Post by redwood »

Tichy wrote: post #185
jdietrich wrote: post #154

I hear a lot of people saying that America needs more manufacturing jobs, but I can't recall ever hearing anyone say that they want to spend the rest of their life doing repetitive assembly operations on a production line. We use Chinese workers because they're cheaper than robots. These are awful, tedious, soul-destroying jobs, but they're just marginally better than backbreaking agricultural labour. Nobody deserves…

I wonder, would agricultural labour be backbreacking if you only had to meet your own demand (and owned enough fields for the purpose)? Serious question, I don't know.

Nature is too erratic to not have episodes of famine if relying only on sustenance farming.

Re: The Beer Game -or- Why Apple Can’t Build iPads in the US

#237

Post by rbarooah »

olalonde wrote: post #235
rbarooah wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nowhere did I assert that this was the parent's arguement. I didn't represent his position at all. My question adds context that changes the weight of the parent's assertions. What I wrote isn't even an argument, so it can't be a straw man.

By asking a question in the negative form ("don't you think...") you are implicitly asserting what follows is your interlocutor's opinion. If that's not your intention, don't ask the question in negative form. In this case: > Do you think that decades of isolationist Maoism had more influence on the rural poverty in China than US and British protectionism? or even better: > On another note, do you think that decades…

By asking a question in the negative form ("don't you think...") you are implicitly asserting what follows is your interlocutor's opinion.

This is where you are wrong. By phrasing it in the negative form I am implicitly asserting that I think that what follows is not my interlocutors opinion.

So, no straw man.

Re: The Beer Game -or- Why Apple Can’t Build iPads in the US

#238

Post by neworbit »

joejohnson wrote: post #44
wtvanhest wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a good question, sorry I wasn't more clear. The basic reason is that there is plenty of manufacturing all over the Midwest that could easily produce the entire Apple supply chain. Shenzhen can also produce that supply chain, but they are no more capable than a lot of American cities. What Shenzhen has that America doesn't are cheap labor, and a devalued currency. Silicon Valley is different primarily because…

>>The basic reason is that there is plenty of manufacturing all over the Midwest that could easily produce the entire Apple supply chain. Do you have a source for that? Foxconn has greater than 1 million employees. I don't think there is any company with a labor force of that scale in the US, or anywhere else in the world. And, per the article at the top of this thread, the bigger issue is the supply chain. If iPhone…

Walmart has circa 2.1M employees, but they are the only exception that comes to mind

Re: The Beer Game -or- Why Apple Can’t Build iPads in the US

#239

Post by olalonde »

rbarooah wrote: post #237
olalonde wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By asking a question in the negative form ("don't you think...") you are implicitly asserting what follows is your interlocutor's opinion. If that's not your intention, don't ask the question in negative form. In this case: > Do you think that decades of isolationist Maoism had more influence on the rural poverty in China than US and British protectionism? or even better: > On another note, do you think that decades…

By asking a question in the negative form ("don't you think...") you are implicitly asserting what follows is your interlocutor's opinion. This is where you are wrong. By phrasing it in the negative form I am implicitly asserting that I think that what follows is not my interlocutors opinion. So, no straw man.

Oops, forgot the "not" there. The rest still holds.

Re: The Beer Game -or- Why Apple Can’t Build iPads in the US

#240

Post by brownbat »

I found the in depth reporting at the Atlantic last month a bit more revelatory:

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/01/making-i...

Though it sort of agrees that supply chain is important, just frames it differently.

The reason Standard Motor still employs (expensive) low skilled US workers like Maddie is because it wants to have her seal up a part immediately after the high skilled worker (Luke) finishes his precision machining role. Workers of Luke's caliber (with knowledge of metallurgy, coding, specific machine training) aren't reliably found in the lowest labor cost countries (at the moment, Poland is getting competitive here).

If robots for Maddie's job get cheaper, or demand grows such that the factory needs to run multiple shifts, or if the factory can somehow move Luke overseas, then Maddie loses her job. If any of these things happen, but firms like Standard keep their Maddies, they get bought out by gigantic German manufacturers, or just undercut on the store shelves until no one's buying their products anymore.

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