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Ivan Illich’s radical critique of modern certitudes (2021)

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Re: Ivan Illich’s radical critique of modern certitudes (2021)

#171
post #168
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If we started today to build nuclear plants everywhere, it's not like we would replace fossil fuels tomorrow. It takes time. Replacing fossil fuels with anything will take time. That doesn't mean we shouldn't start doing it. > Then we would need to replace absolutely everything that uses fossil fuel to use electricity. No, we wouldn't. For applications where electricity is not practical (such as, for example, comme…

> Replacing fossil fuels with anything will take time. That doesn't mean we shouldn't start doing it. Of course we should do it as quickly as possible. But look at the number: most likely we won't replace . We will just compensate for some of the loss. > we can use electricity to make liquid fuels from the CO2 and water vapor in the air, by reversing the chemical reactions that take place when the fuels are burned. B…

> look at the number: most likely we won't replace. We will just compensate for some of the loss.

If you are referring to the current political situation, in which nuclear is at a huge disadvantage for irrational reasons, then I would agree that we won't start building serious nuclear capacity unless and until that political situation changes. But that will need to happen for any solution to work.

> Did you ever stop to check how many nuclear plants we would need to replace all fossil fuels?

About as many as we currently have of fossil fuel plants, since the replacement, at least for large base load electrical plants, is more or less one to one. There is no technical reason why we can't build that number of plants; your apparent belief to the contrary is simply uninformed. The obstacles are purely political.

> That's just about the narrative.

No, it isn't, it's about basic facts: poverty kills people. "Poverty" for most of the world does not mean "can't afford the Disney channel" or "can't afford wasteful overconsumption". It means "can't get enough to eat", "can't get basic health care", "can't afford basic control over your life". Telling people that they just have to suck it up and accept that because of your "degrowth" narrative is not going to work. Nor is it necessary.

You and I are posting here in a medium that requires an industrial civilization, and doing that does not imply wasteful overconsumption. I have had the computer I'm writing this post on for ten years. I've had my current phone for three (and it would be more except that my last one broke--I had that one for about seven or eight years). I've had my current car for six, and my wife has had her current car for ten. I think there are many more people living in first world countries who are like us, than who are wastefully overconsuming.

We don't need "degrowth". Nor will it be forced on us by running out of fossil fuels. If it is forced on us, it will be by stupid politics that refuses to adopt an obvious alternative that has been staring us in the face for decades.

Re: Ivan Illich’s radical critique of modern certitudes (2021)

#172
post #98
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A great introduction to his lines of thinking was (to me) "Ivan Illich in Conversation" by David Cayley [0]. Essentially a book-length interview. While I find him truly interesting, there is an annoyance: he is strongly critical about "traditional" school system, while holding a PhD himself. I've always found this kind of thing somewhat controversial. I wonder if he did consider dropping out during his studies; and i…

Yeah the tone and style of the text kinda bugged me. Who talks like that? I'm definitely sympathetic to the kind of ideas he's advocating, but it's dressed up in a language that makes it seem untrue. It's not surprising to me that he has a Ph.D. Picking something random from the beginning of Tools for Conviviality : https://co-munity.net/system/files/ILLICH%201973_tools_for_c... For several years at CIDOC in Cuernava…

it's old-fashioned, for sure. and therefore less clear to a modern reader.

but it's not that far from the kind of "turgid" prose you find even today in some academic fields (where being difficult to read is desired because a reader may conflate syntactic difficulty with conceptual challenge).

it does come off as performative and thus annoying.

Re: Ivan Illich’s radical critique of modern certitudes (2021)

#173
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting, I've never read about that. Who are those people ? Unless you mean people forming Kibbutz, then yeah

There's a heavily online right-wing presence that admires Ilich; of the people who could be described as "right-wing" I've seen that talk about Ilich, most are either hobby homesteaders or people with advanced CS/engineering degrees that read a lot of "online rationalist" work about a decade ago.

right-wingers including, it is claimed, Putin.

Re: Ivan Illich’s radical critique of modern certitudes (2021)

#174
post #54
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll add in that "we should get rid of all these modern flimflam" is generally a rallying cry by quite well off people who choose not to see the obvious future of poor people getting squelched as resources dry up. There are a lot of problems faced by modern society, and those problems are uncomfortably complicated. Most people don't understand the details of them. However, the incredible productivity of modern humans…

> I'll add in that "we should get rid of all these modern flimflam" is generally a rallying cry by quite well off people who choose not to see the obvious future of poor people getting squelched as resources dry up. Poor people like degrowth just fine. When they let them, that is, and not, e.g. take their land and their forests and their livelihoods. Also, that the first world pro-growthers care for the "poor people"…

degrowth, to a poor person, is starvation.

Re: Ivan Illich’s radical critique of modern certitudes (2021)

#175
post #171
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Replacing fossil fuels with anything will take time. That doesn't mean we shouldn't start doing it. Of course we should do it as quickly as possible. But look at the number: most likely we won't replace . We will just compensate for some of the loss. > we can use electricity to make liquid fuels from the CO2 and water vapor in the air, by reversing the chemical reactions that take place when the fuels are burned. B…

> look at the number: most likely we won't replace. We will just compensate for some of the loss. If you are referring to the current political situation, in which nuclear is at a huge disadvantage for irrational reasons, then I would agree that we won't start building serious nuclear capacity unless and until that political situation changes. But that will need to happen for any solution to work. > Did you ever stop…

> No, it isn't, it's about basic facts: poverty kills people.

Either you misunderstood me, or that's bad faith. I said that we need sobriety: we need to stop consuming too much energy (and increasing the rate at which we consume it).

I also said that if we don't get our act together and control the transition to a world without fossil fuels (and hence with less energy), then it won't be sobriety, it will be poverty. Obviously, nobody wants poverty, and I know we do agree on that. Don't make me say what I haven't.

Now the thing is that you seem to vastly underestimate the power of fossil fuels and the difficulty of nuclear power. Do you even know how one would "reverse the chemical reaction that takes place when fuels are burned"? Sounds to me like you don't have much knowledge in chemistry, do you. Note that I am not a chemist myself, I just had a specialization in environmental chemistry at university. But what's for sure is that reversing a chemical process is not always easy, and this one surely isn't.

You can't just throw ideas out there about "reversing chemical reactions" without having a clue how much energy it takes to do that. Energy is not infinite, it's not that hard to grasp, is it?

Re: Ivan Illich’s radical critique of modern certitudes (2021)

#176
post #169
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an odd take considering the Catholic church via the Vatican was one of the most powerful and wealthiest organizations in Europe for many centuries, able to topple monarchs.

The point stands: if your argument were true of the Catholic Church being ruled by money and doing whatever it economically can do to propagate, the Church would behave much differently than it currently does. But, the Church is not doing everything economically possible to propagate today, so there must be some other ruling principle.

"economics" doesn't mean "money", it means the allocation of resources.

You're treating this whole idea as though there's a nefarious organization deliberately managing things (which there is in some cases, but the why is unacknowledged).

But a cell in your body has an energy economy that means it adopts certain strategies based on it's constraints.

Similarly, successful religions have an economy of beliefs that they have to adopt based on constraints. Almost all religions portray an afterlife, so all religions have a problem where they need to stop people short-cutting to get there - otherwise they promptly stop existing. But then they also have followers with limited resources so they also can't preach infinite life-extension since that undermines the afterlife narrative, and is economically unfeasible for followers (particularly since you also need to collect donations to your church to keep the organizational structure running).

Re: Ivan Illich’s radical critique of modern certitudes (2021)

#177
post #176
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point stands: if your argument were true of the Catholic Church being ruled by money and doing whatever it economically can do to propagate, the Church would behave much differently than it currently does. But, the Church is not doing everything economically possible to propagate today, so there must be some other ruling principle.

"economics" doesn't mean "money", it means the allocation of resources. You're treating this whole idea as though there's a nefarious organization deliberately managing things (which there is in some cases, but the why is unacknowledged). But a cell in your body has an energy economy that means it adopts certain strategies based on it's constraints. Similarly, successful religions have an economy of beliefs that they…

[deleted]

Re: Ivan Illich’s radical critique of modern certitudes (2021)

#178
post #176
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point stands: if your argument were true of the Catholic Church being ruled by money and doing whatever it economically can do to propagate, the Church would behave much differently than it currently does. But, the Church is not doing everything economically possible to propagate today, so there must be some other ruling principle.

"economics" doesn't mean "money", it means the allocation of resources. You're treating this whole idea as though there's a nefarious organization deliberately managing things (which there is in some cases, but the why is unacknowledged). But a cell in your body has an energy economy that means it adopts certain strategies based on it's constraints. Similarly, successful religions have an economy of beliefs that they…

A belief is economical if it exists today, and existing beliefs are economical. This tautological line of reasoning doesn't help explain the Catholic approach to anything.

Re: Ivan Illich’s radical critique of modern certitudes (2021)

#179
post #178
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"economics" doesn't mean "money", it means the allocation of resources. You're treating this whole idea as though there's a nefarious organization deliberately managing things (which there is in some cases, but the why is unacknowledged). But a cell in your body has an energy economy that means it adopts certain strategies based on it's constraints. Similarly, successful religions have an economy of beliefs that they…

A belief is economical if it exists today, and existing beliefs are economical. This tautological line of reasoning doesn't help explain the Catholic approach to anything.

What's tautological? How are the Branch Davidians doing? Heaven's Gate?

I note you keep insisting "they would change beliefs" but you've neglected to ever include what changes you think would obviously disprove this hypothesis.

Re: Ivan Illich’s radical critique of modern certitudes (2021)

#180
post #9

Somehow I doubt the time has come for "truths so radical that they question[ed] the very foundations of modern certitudes".

Look at people who are consuming corporate-paid subscription to "Headspace" and alike meditation apps. Ironically these apps are solving the problem created by latest capitalism (or corporatism if you wish): unsatisfaction with ones life. People searching for piece in corporate-sponsored meditation apps is a direct representation described in these lines from the article: > Illich defined conviviality as “autonomous…

I know it's trendy, but how is capitalism/corporatism the cause of dissatisfaction with life? people were all satisfied a thousand years ago? honestly curious...
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