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Can you use your "free will"? Try your hand

people.ischool.berkeley.edu

251–260 of 279 posts

Re: Can you use your "free will"? Try your hand

#251
post #22

The question is never if we have free will or not. The question is if we are in a state where free will is available or not. For example, when I’m aware that there is space around myself, then I’m also aware that there are thoughts, feeling in the body, breath etc. In this state, I believe, it’s possible to choose. In this test I can choose the only press the other key and this algorithm doesn’t do so well. Then some…

I remember reading Rand where she argued that free will existed solely in the decision to focus or not. When you focused, what you thought was determined by your characteristics and history; and when you didn't, the same, although not in the same way. But free choice manifested in the decision to intentionally focus attention or not.

I don't know that I agree, but thought it was interesting.

Re: Can you use your "free will"? Try your hand

#252
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I challenge you to get any more than a single digit percent of any representative sample of people to agree a random process is free will by definition. It's one of exceedingly few definitions I've heard in decades of discussing the subject that I'll agree doesn't immediately make free will impossible, but at the same time it's one that too me at least exemplifies something that is neither free nor will.

If you want to talk about "free will" rigorously, you need to consider the human being as a random process.

No, I don't. I can reject the notion of free will on the basis that I would never consider a "random process" either "free" nor an expression of "will".

Re: Can you use your "free will"? Try your hand

#254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but... 50% prediction rate would indicate that half of the time you are predictable, meaning you don't have much free will. 0% prediction rate would indicate that you have 100% free will. Randomness is not a good measure of free will.

There really isn’t a “yes but” here, this is stats 101. Welcome to the class. A 0% prediction rate means that you are 100% predictable by simply taking the opposite of the algorithm’s input or output. Thus, you have no free will (according to this tool).

Free will is not a topic for stats, but rather philosophy.

Re: Can you use your "free will"? Try your hand

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There really isn’t a “yes but” here, this is stats 101. Welcome to the class. A 0% prediction rate means that you are 100% predictable by simply taking the opposite of the algorithm’s input or output. Thus, you have no free will (according to this tool).

Free will is not a topic for stats, but rather philosophy.

That’s totally off-topic. We are talking about this tool.

Re: Can you use your "free will"? Try your hand

#256
post #107
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your definition of free will is a compatibilist one, and a lot of people reacts strongly negatively to compatibilist definitions when you turn explain that in a deterministic universe they are compatible with you not actually being able to make a different choice if we "rewound time". To me, a compatibilist "free will" is not free - it's an illusion. Being aware the "free" part of compatibilist free will is an illusi…

I think the critical thing you and I disagree with is how you think chance and randomness exist, there is no proof that they do, everything has a cause. There is no rewinding of time. You and I are experiencing time one reality clockrate at a time and our minds refuse to contemplate reality beyond time as we know it, that's why infinity is a difficult to grasp concept for us. You couldn't have made a different decisi…

> how you think chance and randomness exist, there is no proof that they do, everything has a cause.

I don't assume they do, but it is irrelevant to my argument whether they do or not.

> There is no rewinding of time.

Firstly, we do not know this. We do not, in fact know that time passes at all. We have no ability to perceive time other than as a function of memory we do not know whether is real.

But that too is irrelevant to my argument - you're taking it to literally.

It is a shortcut to make am argument about whether the same entity with the same exact state processing the same inputs can produce a different outcome. Making that argument was both in part a rejection of randomness but more critically a rejection of agency: It's an argument that if nothing can change if you can repeat the same inputs to world with the same state, there can be nothing "free" about that process, nor any expression of "will", thus no agency, and that in such a system "free will" is at most an illusion.

> You and I are experiencing time one reality clockrate at a time and our minds refuse to contemplate reality beyond time as we know it, that's why infinity is a difficult to grasp concept for us.

We have no evidence either for or against the passage of time, and we can't have without "outside knowledge" of the system we're within. But that's a digression. We can postulate the passage of time. It does not have any bearing on the argument either way.

> You couldn't have made a different decision, but it was still your decision.

It was "my decision" the same way that was a programs "decision" to produce a given output instead of another based on its state and input. This is - as I said - a compatibilist argument, and one most people get rather agitatedly insistent isn't how things are once you go into the details. People really don't like the notion that they have no agency.

This is why I'm arguing that on one hand "compatibilist free will" is an unsatisfactory illusion, and that one the other hand free will with the agency most people believes that implies is utter nonsense.

To make it clear to you as you have clearly misunderstood my point: Free will is nonsense. Compatibilist free will is nothing more than trying to paper over that by playing silly semantic games that does not imply there's anything "free" about anything, and so I consider it an illusion. And a harmful one at that, because it makes people imagine something very different.

> It is because you assumed that your decisions control all outcomes that you feel deluded. Or you assumed your decisions can't be predicted.

No, I assume my "decisions" are all deterministic or at most stochastic in a way I have no agency over whatsoever and I consider the notion there's anything "free" about it absolutely ludicrous.

Whether or not they can be predicted is entirely orthogonal to that.

> In no way was his free will an illusion?

It was 100% an illusion in that given the same inputs and the exact same state, all we know suggests that cause and effect would either - if you assume randomness ultimately is deterministic at some level - be entirely deterministic - or a stochastic combination of deterministic and randomness.

No possible example you can give addresses that fundamental issue: There is no known logical cause of decisions that isn't either a deterministic cause-and-effect link or randomness, or a combination of the two. Without that there is no agency, and we are nothing more than automatons.

To be clear: I am arguing we are nothing more than automatons.

(Find a "third logical cause" and you'd be up for the Nobel in both physics and maths)

> why did you presume you could control any outcome

I don't presume anyone can control any outcome. That was my point. Hence arguing that a compatibilist "free will" is nothing but an illusion.

> his excercise of free will to attempt suicides is the cause of his tragic paralytic fate

And I'm saying that "free will" is pure illusion. Nothing you have described suggests any source of decision-making other than deterministic cause and effect - you have yourself ruled out randomness. There's nothing "free" about it.

To reiterate, your version of "free will" has a name: It's a compatibilist view. It's well trod philosophical ground.

Words are defined by use, so you're entirely free (heh, sorry) to use "free will" to refer to that, but my argument is that while superficially a lot of people will nod along to that, the moment you explain the implication - that they couldn't possibly have done things differently, people tend to have a strong negative reaction to it.

People want to think they have agency, and with compatibilist free will does not provide that. That does categorically not mean I think free will with agency exists - it means I think using the term "free will" about "compatibilist free will" is wildly misleading.

Compatibilists, cling to this use of "free will" because it is the only way of getting to a definition of "free will" that gives even the superficial illusion of free will without being full of logical holes. "Compatibilist free will" does explain our perception of having free will.

My point is that calling it free will is at best a misnomer, and one that is harmful because the failure to accept that it is an illusion causes people to cling to moral arguments that are wildly invalid without actual agency and actually free "free will".

E.g. without agency any punishment of criminals not designed to minimise harm to all of society including the criminals themselves becomes far harder to justify.

Holding on to this flawed fiction of free will is drastically keeping society in an utterly barbaric, immoral state.

Re: Can you use your "free will"? Try your hand

#257
post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but... 50% prediction rate would indicate that half of the time you are predictable, meaning you don't have much free will. 0% prediction rate would indicate that you have 100% free will. Randomness is not a good measure of free will.

Maybe the issue is that we're being too discrete, thinking in terms of absolute predictability or absolute unpredictability. Ultimately a 50% prediction rate means that you are as unpredictable as is possible, the state of maximum entropy. Any deviation from 50%, towards 100% or 0%, is a state of lower entropy. You can forget the free will and just consider a fair coin toss. If someone had the ability to always guess…

If we forget free will, then I will grant your position regarding statistics.

But suppose you could collect every bit of evidence in the universe and use it in a massive calculation to guess what my next decision would be.

This would be a test of whether I had free will, or whether I was simply doing what the universe made me do. If I wanted to demonstrate free will, I wouldn’t be aiming for random. I’d be aiming to make your guess wrong as often as I could.

If I could make your guess wrong 100% of the time, this would not mean that you could simply flip the bit on your guess next time. You can modify the calculation after every guess and it wouldn’t matter. I’d still do what your calculation thought I wouldn’t based on previous history. If I could do that, that would be a magical thing. Yes. I would have demonstrated completely free will according to this test.

This is why we call rand(), not freewill().

Free will is not random at all. It means you wear the shirt you want to wear, not a completely random shirt.

Oh, and before somebody objects, yes this is a terrible test of free will. Because whether I want to score high or low on the test or in the middle is up to me if I have free will. ;)

Re: Can you use your "free will"? Try your hand

#258
post #181
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you define free will?

I say that I have free will because my decisions come from myself and not from something outside me. Sure, the context in which I live can influence my decisions, but the final choice is mine and it can happen that I take a decision that goes against what the context (society, family etc.) would expect from me.

To an external observer, you are nothing by a very complex set of chemical and electrical reactions.

With sufficient technology, we could take a snapshot of your brain and predict exactly how you respond to any given stimulus with 100% accuracy.

Free will is an illusion. Consciousness is undefinable and unprovable.

Re: Can you use your "free will"? Try your hand

#259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free will is not a topic for stats, but rather philosophy.

That’s totally off-topic. We are talking about this tool.

Oh come on. The tool is supposedly designed to test “free will.”

Your presupposition seems to be that randomness = free will.

I propose that being forced to choose a random letter is the opposite of free will.

Re: Can you use your "free will"? Try your hand

#260
post #141
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although I do believe we have free will, I don't agree with this specific example: looking at the algorithm used to predict key presses and just doing the opposite of what would the algorithm predicts, is letting the algorithm tell you what to do. This is related to inverse psychology.

How do you define free will?

first, how do you define the will part? what is will such that it can be free or not?
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