Stallman: "Facebook is an international parasitism project." • Hacker News Board

Re: Stallman: "Facebook is an international parasitism project."

#141

Post by zbuc » Fri, Apr 06, 2012, 9:41 PM UTC

msbarnett wrote: post #90

Udo wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree about the absolutist black/white world view but it is unclear to me how RMS is a misanthrope. Skimming the whole discussion on that mailing list it's also apparent to me that - while RMS did go offtopic by advising people to not use Facebook - poor social skills were in fact exhibited by the next commenter who replied to him in a very sarcastic and hostile way. Taking the subject matter into account it would…

Well, there is the mailing list incident where, when someone congratulated another contributor on the birth of their child, Stallman labelled the entire phenomenon of childbirth as "menacing" and went on to say "these birth announcements also spread the myth that having a baby is something to be proud of, which fuels natalist pressure, which leads to pollution, extinction of wildlife, poverty, and ultimately mass sta…

Also the conversation a few weeks back where free software enthusiasts who developed non-free software at their jobs were talking with him...

http://lunduke.com/?p=2273

> You see, I make software for most of my living. And I talked with Stallman (in email) before the show, about how I would love to get any ideas he has on how a developer, of proprietary software, can move that software to a Free and Open license… while still keeping food on the table for his family. From a practical standpoint.

> This is a topic that has come up time and again. And I really wanted to get Stallman’s thoughts on the matter.

> So, near the beginning of the interview, I ask him about that. How does someone like me make the move to working on only Free Software and still support his family?

> The end result was that he feels that all developers and businesses of proprietary software should fail. And that it is more important for there to not be proprietary software… than it is to be able to feed your children.

> I’m not kidding. I’m not exaggerating. I’m not putting words in his mouth. I even asked him, point blank, to verify his stance.

> He did not say that having Free Software is more important than kids having food to eat. I repeat: He said that it was more important that non-free software be gone… than for you to be able to feed your kids. That’s how evil he thinks non-free software is. Evil enough to justify causing significant harm to your family to do away with a small amount of it. (Of course this isn’t the first time Stallman has been anti-children.)

Re: Stallman: "Facebook is an international parasitism project."

#142

Post by biafra » Fri, Apr 06, 2012, 9:42 PM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #97

I think I know what Stallman is getting at. I've been thinking about how resistance movements work. In general, they use the power of personal connections to resist the power of a government. Facebook amplified the effect of this kind of power for the Arab Spring by augmenting those kinds of connections. What if those governments had preexisting intelligence about the social graph? In World War II, Germans used paper…

I am very sure they do not have such a button. Primarily because they do not think about those consequences. To the contrary: Their social graph is so valuable I am sure they will do anything to protect it from being destroyed.

And how do you know your government has turned oppressive? It won't be as visible as with the NSDAP the next time. Some would argue its already under way.

Re: Stallman: "Facebook is an international parasitism project."

#143

Post by fudged » Fri, Apr 06, 2012, 9:44 PM UTC

noduerme wrote: post #72

partytime wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other oppressive and authoritative thing about it -- completely aside from the whole surveillance and tracking aspect -- is that it obliterates the past. There was a time when, if you just met someone at a bar or some event or while traveling, there was still a bit of mystery to them. You had to interact with them a bit more until you found out about their family, their friends, and where they've been in life. No…

I find this dark, disturbing, and terrifying. As a never-was, non-social-media user... I'm only 31... 5 years ago, I felt like I couldn't understand kids who were a few years younger than me. Now I feel like there's a total rupture between my mode of being and that of almost everyone else. When I give you my attention, I'm giving it to you . Completely. I don't multitask people. And you know I want to talk to you, be…

whose apparent sense of inadequacy and misunderstanding of the nature of personal relationships are written large across every aspect of that system

I believe the contrary is true. Facebook is successful because Zuckerberg et al understand social ties to the point where they have locked people into their system, got them to interact more, provide all their private information, and then profit off them by serving them all intrusive advertising.

I don't think it would be at all possible if they didn't understand social relationships. They know them intimately enough to skew our idea of privacy and social communication to the point of profit.

I say kudos to them for their brilliance. But I also think they are one of the most evil corporations in existence.

Re: Stallman: "Facebook is an international parasitism project."

#144

Post by tedunangst » Fri, Apr 06, 2012, 9:45 PM UTC

tikhonj wrote: post #135

tedunangst wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a distinction between having something taken and giving it freely. Facebook haters have the cognitive ability to make this distinction, but lack the integrity to do so.

Ad hominems never help your argument but do degrade the discussion. Please avoid them. The idea of "giving away" a right is not that simple--for example, I think there are certain rights you cannot legally waive. Even if what Facebook is doing is legal (which it probably is), this same principle can reasonably be extended to condemn what they are doing from an ethical standpoint. Additionally, Facebook does not only…

I'm serious. Deliberately failing to make that distinction is intellectually dishonest, and that degrades the discussion.

As to your second point, Facebook is not running around taking pictures of you. Your friends are. If your privacy is being violated, it's your friends (to use the term loosely) who are doing it. Facebook provides a platform, but they are not the primary actor. That's another distinction I don't see being made frequently enough.

Re: Stallman: "Facebook is an international parasitism project."

#145

Post by jberryman » Fri, Apr 06, 2012, 9:45 PM UTC

noduerme wrote: post #10

When I was a kid, my parents sent me to camp, even though all I wanted to do was sit home and write text adventures in BASIC. I hated camp. I hated the kids, and the counselors, and most of all I hated how everyone acted like if you didn't like it, if you weren't having fun, then there was something messed up about you . Facebook = camp. The most oppressive and authoritarian thing about it is, at root, that most peop…

> a one-paragraph throwaway rant

personal nitpick, but the linked post didn't read like a rant to me. seemed fairly polite, (unless you're facebook) in contrast to the sneering jab he was replying to.

Re: Stallman: "Facebook is an international parasitism project."

#146

Post by zethraeus » Fri, Apr 06, 2012, 9:47 PM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #97

I think I know what Stallman is getting at. I've been thinking about how resistance movements work. In general, they use the power of personal connections to resist the power of a government. Facebook amplified the effect of this kind of power for the Arab Spring by augmenting those kinds of connections. What if those governments had preexisting intelligence about the social graph? In World War II, Germans used paper…

Destroying Facebook from the inside, assuming you had control over and an understanding of whatever system they use to manage their server farms, would surely be trivial. I highly doubt there's something as apocalyptic as a designed "self destruct", or even a need for it.

Re: Stallman: "Facebook is an international parasitism project."

#147

Post by millzlane » Fri, Apr 06, 2012, 9:48 PM UTC

fudged wrote: post #139

jlarocco wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a really confusing post. Nobody cares that you don't like Facebook because nobody is forcing you to use Facebook. I'm at a loss as to how you can consider it "oppressive" and "authoritarian." Did some thugs from FB come around signing people up at gunpoint? I don't even see what you're trying to achieve, really. You just want other people to stop using Facebook because you don't like it?

You're taking it far too literal. I'm aware of parents who have 6 year olds and 10 year olds using Facebook so that they have access to games and family. The Facebook UI/UX does do nasty tricks to coerce people into providing more information than they prefer. Did you know that other users can volunteer your information? Someone else can register themselves as your family member, close friend, or classmate at a speci…

This is true, I also found that they can still tag pictures of you even if you have disabled/canceled your account.

Forcing people to use their FB profiles as the only means of accessing a service is a downright scary thing considering how much information we know they hold. I wish everyone would have just used openid... I was quite happy with iming/emailing/ and status updates through away messages. We don't need FB. But FB needs us.

Re: Stallman: "Facebook is an international parasitism project."

#148

Post by davidhollander » Fri, Apr 06, 2012, 9:49 PM UTC

dasil003 wrote: post #110

davidhollander wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calling Facebook an oppressive and authoritarian camp violating freedom seems extremely hyperbolic. Doesn't this disservice the experience of those who have actually died in oppressive and authoritarian camps? Is the mental pain individuals experience when using freely provided and voluntary services equivalent to the physical pain individuals experience when coerced to perform actions against their will via threats…

He wasn't talking about those camps though. He was talking about American summer camp.

Which an authority figure sent him to against his will. Authoritarian power is universally derived the ability to assert the right to legitimate force over others. This is in sharp contrast to voluntary institutions and businesses such as Facebook or Google, which assert no right to legitimate force, and are therefore limited to the power which individuals choose to grant them for catering to their preferences.

Re: Stallman: "Facebook is an international parasitism project."

#149

Post by coffeemug » Fri, Apr 06, 2012, 9:50 PM UTC

noduerme wrote: post #10

When I was a kid, my parents sent me to camp, even though all I wanted to do was sit home and write text adventures in BASIC. I hated camp. I hated the kids, and the counselors, and most of all I hated how everyone acted like if you didn't like it, if you weren't having fun, then there was something messed up about you . Facebook = camp. The most oppressive and authoritarian thing about it is, at root, that most peop…

There is a world of difference between citizens complaining how their governments are corrupt, and husbands complaining how their wives boss them around. The former is a macro problem - if you're unhappy there's very little you can do to make a difference, you really need everyone to get behind your cause but because of weird behavioral science quirks this happens very rarely. The latter is a micro problem - learn to have the courage to set boundaries in your life, and the problem will go away.

Facebook is a problem of the latter form. It's entirely within your control to limit the information you give them, carefully select privacy settings (which are quite extensive), or not create an account at all. In any case, nothing about it is heinous violation of your freedom and imposition on your private space, since the whole thing is voluntary.

To me the problem seems the opposite of the camp problem. There are a few "weird" kids who cannot understand how people could possibly like Facebook, so they make it a personal crusade to make it known all the time. Look, our adult society is pretty good at accepting behavioral outliers. Not ideal, but probably the best the world has ever known. But sometimes it's the outlier that's the problem. Consider that many people don't see Facebook as a privacy issue once they've weighed everything carefully and not because they're idiots. Perhaps they treat "Facebook-haters" strangely not because they're not on Facebook, but because they go out of their way to annoy everyone by trying to make a point out of it all the time?

Re: Stallman: "Facebook is an international parasitism project."

#150

Post by millzlane » Fri, Apr 06, 2012, 9:51 PM UTC

noduerme wrote: post #10

When I was a kid, my parents sent me to camp, even though all I wanted to do was sit home and write text adventures in BASIC. I hated camp. I hated the kids, and the counselors, and most of all I hated how everyone acted like if you didn't like it, if you weren't having fun, then there was something messed up about you . Facebook = camp. The most oppressive and authoritarian thing about it is, at root, that most peop…

I loved summer camp...but hate Facebook. Use another analogy Camp didn't make me sign a privacy policy to go there, or keep all of my information after I left. It was nice, and simple and there were no gimmicks. Pay for camp have a great time! That is if you were interested in it.