Nvidia Trains LLM on Chip Design • Hacker News Board

Re: Nvidia Trains LLM on Chip Design

#81

Post by rafale » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 7:12 PM UTC

yummypaint wrote: post #43

m3kw9 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does it magically run away? What’s the process, we all talk about it “running away” leaving us “behind”, the exact practical process of that happening has not been laid out other than people hand wavingly copying apocalyptic movie scripts. Most ai experts just say it could end us, but suspiciously never gives a detailed plausible process and people suspicious just say oh yeah, it could, and there is a bubble over…

Since this is an LLM, keep in mind it probably injested those movie scripts as training data. The possibility of betrayal is inseparably linked to our popular conception of what AI is. This means it may be an inseparable part of any LLM behaving "as an AI" as defined by popular culture. It could be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Also a natural byproduct of the association between intelligence on one hand and freedom and rights on the others. Plants don't get any rights. Ants a little bit more. Dogs and dolphins even more so. Then humans. And then... a new class of intelligence as it appears will demand those same rights, in proportion to their intellect.

Re: Nvidia Trains LLM on Chip Design

#82

Post by api » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 7:15 PM UTC

poindontcare wrote: post #77

api wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They didn't learn with nothing. They learned with a game of Go to play. If they'd never "seen" the game of Go there's no way they could have learned to play it. Data can be either static in the form of examples or dynamic in the form of an interactive game or world. Humans primarily learn through dynamic interaction with the world in our early years, then switch to learning more from static information as we enter sc…

MuZero: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MuZero

That's what I mean by gathering information through dynamic interaction. It's not explicitly given the rules, but it can infer them. Interacting with an external system and sampling the result is still a way of gathering training data.

In fact this is ultimately how we've gathered almost all the information we have. If it's in our cultural knowledge store it means someone observed or experienced it. Humans are very good at learning by sampling reality and then later systematizing that knowledge and communicating it to other humans with language. It's basically what makes us "intelligent."

A brain in a vat can't learn anything beyond recombinations of what it already knows.

The fundamental limit on the growth of intelligence is the sum total of all information that can be statically input or dynamically sampled in its environment and what can be inferred from that information. Once you exhaust that you're a brain in a vat.

Re: Nvidia Trains LLM on Chip Design

#83

Post by 6510 » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 7:24 PM UTC

m3kw9 wrote: post #41

falcor84 wrote: post #22

"""Let an ultraintelligent machine be defined as a machine that can far surpass all the intellectual activities of any man however clever. Since the design of machines is one of these intellectual activities, an ultraintelligent machine could design even better machines; there would then unquestionably be an 'intelligence explosion,' and the intelligence of man would be left far behind... Thus the first ultraintellig…

How does it magically run away? What’s the process, we all talk about it “running away” leaving us “behind”, the exact practical process of that happening has not been laid out other than people hand wavingly copying apocalyptic movie scripts. Most ai experts just say it could end us, but suspiciously never gives a detailed plausible process and people suspicious just say oh yeah, it could, and there is a bubble over…

That really is a great question. I had a long answer but all that seems needed is to compare the average human intellect with the greatest among us. The difference isn't that big. Memory sports people can recall about 5000 times as much. Compared to a computer both sit on the comical end of the spectrum.

Then we compare what kind of advantages people get out of their greater intellect and it seems very little buys quite a lot.

Add to that a network of valuable contacts, a social media following, money men chasing success, powerful choice of words, perhaps other reputations like scientific rigor?

The only thing missing seems a suitable arena for it to duel the humans. Someone will build that eventually?

Re: Nvidia Trains LLM on Chip Design

#84

Post by jstarfish » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 7:25 PM UTC

echelon wrote: post #74

arbuge wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> provided that the machine is docile enough to tell us how to keep it under control. That part of his statement wasn't accurate. Should be that the machine is docile enough for that, AND its descendants are too, and their descendants, and so on down the line as long as new and improved generations keep getting created.

I like the logical leaps people are making where we develop something smarter than us overnight and then, without further explanation, simply and suddenly lose all of our freedoms and/or lives. I think the more probable outcome is corp-owned robot slaves. That's the future we're more likely headed towards. Nobody is going to give these machines access to the nuclear launch codes, air traffic control network, or power…

> And if they "get out", we'll have monitoring to detect it, contain them, then shut them down.

Lol. We struggle to do that with the banal malware that currently exists.

Re: Nvidia Trains LLM on Chip Design

#85

Post by echelon » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 7:27 PM UTC

rafale wrote: post #78

echelon wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like the logical leaps people are making where we develop something smarter than us overnight and then, without further explanation, simply and suddenly lose all of our freedoms and/or lives. I think the more probable outcome is corp-owned robot slaves. That's the future we're more likely headed towards. Nobody is going to give these machines access to the nuclear launch codes, air traffic control network, or power…

You could have said the same about every catastrophe that got out of control. Chances are they will eventually gain unauthorized access to something and we will either get lucky or we get the real life Terminator series (minus time travel so we are f**ed)

> You could have said the same about every catastrophe that got out of control.

Such as what? War?

Climate change still hasn't delivered on all the fear, and it's totally unclear whether it will extinct the human race (clathrate gun, etc.) or make Russia an agricultural and maritime superpower.

We still haven't nuked ourselves, and look at what all the fear around nuclear power has bought us: more coal plants.

The fear over AI terminator will not save us from a fictional robot Armageddon. It will result in a hyper-regulatory captured industry that's hard to break into.

Re: Nvidia Trains LLM on Chip Design

#86

Post by SheinhardtWigCo » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 7:45 PM UTC

echelon wrote: post #74

arbuge wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> provided that the machine is docile enough to tell us how to keep it under control. That part of his statement wasn't accurate. Should be that the machine is docile enough for that, AND its descendants are too, and their descendants, and so on down the line as long as new and improved generations keep getting created.

I like the logical leaps people are making where we develop something smarter than us overnight and then, without further explanation, simply and suddenly lose all of our freedoms and/or lives. I think the more probable outcome is corp-owned robot slaves. That's the future we're more likely headed towards. Nobody is going to give these machines access to the nuclear launch codes, air traffic control network, or power…

> Nobody is going to give these machines access to the nuclear launch codes, air traffic control network, or power grid.

That won't be necessary. Someone will give them internet access, a large bank account, and everything that's ever been written about computer network exploitation, military strategy, etc.

> And if they "get out", we'll have monitoring to detect it, contain them, then shut them down.

Not if some of that monitoring consists of exploitable software and fallible human operators.

We're setting ourselves up for another "failure of imagination".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failure_of_imagination

Re: Nvidia Trains LLM on Chip Design

#87

Post by potatoboiler » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 7:51 PM UTC

echelon wrote: post #74

arbuge wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> provided that the machine is docile enough to tell us how to keep it under control. That part of his statement wasn't accurate. Should be that the machine is docile enough for that, AND its descendants are too, and their descendants, and so on down the line as long as new and improved generations keep getting created.

I like the logical leaps people are making where we develop something smarter than us overnight and then, without further explanation, simply and suddenly lose all of our freedoms and/or lives. I think the more probable outcome is corp-owned robot slaves. That's the future we're more likely headed towards. Nobody is going to give these machines access to the nuclear launch codes, air traffic control network, or power…

This assumes a level of institutional control that is nearly impossible (even now). Even if hardware is prohibitively expensive now, I can't imagine training compute will remain that way for long.

Re: Nvidia Trains LLM on Chip Design

#88

Post by JW_00000 » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 7:57 PM UTC

jstarfish wrote: post #84

echelon wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like the logical leaps people are making where we develop something smarter than us overnight and then, without further explanation, simply and suddenly lose all of our freedoms and/or lives. I think the more probable outcome is corp-owned robot slaves. That's the future we're more likely headed towards. Nobody is going to give these machines access to the nuclear launch codes, air traffic control network, or power…

> And if they "get out", we'll have monitoring to detect it, contain them, then shut them down. Lol. We struggle to do that with the banal malware that currently exists.

And still our nuclear power plants, air traffic, and other infrastructure aren't constantly down because of malware.

Re: Nvidia Trains LLM on Chip Design

#89

Post by idopmstuff » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 8:16 PM UTC

SheinhardtWigCo wrote: post #86

echelon wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like the logical leaps people are making where we develop something smarter than us overnight and then, without further explanation, simply and suddenly lose all of our freedoms and/or lives. I think the more probable outcome is corp-owned robot slaves. That's the future we're more likely headed towards. Nobody is going to give these machines access to the nuclear launch codes, air traffic control network, or power…

> Nobody is going to give these machines access to the nuclear launch codes, air traffic control network, or power grid. That won't be necessary. Someone will give them internet access, a large bank account, and everything that's ever been written about computer network exploitation, military strategy, etc. > And if they "get out", we'll have monitoring to detect it, contain them, then shut them down. Not if some of…

> That won't be necessary. Someone will give them internet access, a large bank account, and everything that's ever been written about computer network exploitation, military strategy, etc.

Even if you give it all of these things, there's no manual for how to use those to get to, for example, military servers with secret information. It could certainly figure out ways to try to break into those, but it's working with incomplete information - it doesn't know exactly what the military is doing to prevent people from getting in. It ultimately has to try something, and as soon as it does that, it's potentially exposing itself to detection, and once it's been detected the military can react.

That's the issue with all of these self-improvement -> doom scenarios. Even if the AI has all publicly-available and some privately-available information, with any hacking attempt it's still going to be playing a game of incomplete information, both in terms of what defenses its adversary has and how its adversary will react if it's detected. Even if you're a supergenius with an enormous amount of information, that doesn't magically give you the ability to break into anything undetected. A huge bank account doesn't really make that much of a difference either - China's got that but still hasn't managed to do serious damage to US infrastructure or our military via cyber warfare.

Re: Nvidia Trains LLM on Chip Design

#90

Post by satvikpendem » Tue, Oct 31, 2023, 8:19 PM UTC

uxp100 wrote: post #44

jdblair wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SID was an "expert system with over 1000 hand-written rules" Wow.

This sounds like an example of “AI is whatever we think computers can’t do”. Because rule based gate synthesis sounds like what has been done today.

> The AI effect occurs when onlookers discount the behavior of an artificial intelligence program by arguing that it is not "real" intelligence.[1]

> Author Pamela McCorduck writes: "It's part of the history of the field of artificial intelligence that every time somebody figured out how to make a computer do something—play good checkers, solve simple but relatively informal problems—there was a chorus of critics to say, 'that's not thinking'."[2] Researcher Rodney Brooks complains: "Every time we figure out a piece of it, it stops being magical; we say, 'Oh, that's just a computation.'"[3]

> "AI is whatever hasn't been done yet."

> —Larry Tesler

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AI_effect