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People with autism less likely to succumb to bystander effect, research finds

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Re: People with autism less likely to succumb to bystander effect, research finds

#351

Post by golergka »

giraffe_lady wrote: post #334
golergka wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't really makes sense. Two things that you mention, like determining what people need and role of random chance, don't have anything to do with justice. For me, justice is fulfilment of obligations between people, that we either take explicitly (as promises or contracts), or a very limited number that should be implicitly upheld by all — about aggression and property. But while helping others is a good deed…

I'm not the person you're talking to but I am autistic and I do experience a powerful obligation to help others in need. I feel it deeply in my very soul and I always have; I experience every choice not to act on it as a crushing moral and spiritual failure. I understand this isn't typical but surely you can see that it is a possible experience of the world for some people to have?

> I do experience a powerful obligation

That does not contradict my point in any way. I do experience this "obligation" too, and help others, but I don't think this word fits here. But that's just an emotion — that's not a real obligation that I actually owe somebody except for myself.

Emotions are my own volition — I'm free to experience whatever I fee like. Real obligations are not; I have to respect them regardless of my internal emotional state.

Re: People with autism less likely to succumb to bystander effect, research finds

#352

Post by COOL_DUDE_2112 »

doktrin wrote: post #286
COOL_DUDE_2112 wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Standing up for people who can't is important, but any situation calls ensuring your own safety as well—you can't help anyone if you end up a victim yourself. The worse story in recent memory is of someone who got stabbed to death in a subway because they spoke up against someone else being racist. Well that's just bad situational awareness... you can keep an eye on hands, pockets etc when confronting injustice, an…

This is a delusional take. Your karate class hasn’t prepared you to survive - let alone “stop” - a knife attack and the sooner you disabuse yourself of that notion the better.

> This is a delusional take. Your karate class hasn’t prepared you to survive - let alone “stop” - a knife attack and the sooner you disabuse yourself of that notion the better.

They told us what the person below says for a gun -- just give them what they want if it's not your body.

If someone is standing, making threats, blocking your exit, and you've had training, there are techniques to use to disarm them.

I know this because I've done it at least once in the real, and many times in practice before I stopped doing Tang Soo Do.

The key is to keep an eye on their hands/pockets and move in close, get control of the hand, and then either twist until their tendons are gonna snap or... jam their own knife into their leg/side.

It wasn't a smart move, but I had a lot of people block the door and abuse me when younger, so nowadays when someone does it I'm not inclined to de-escalate them one iota.

Re: People with autism less likely to succumb to bystander effect, research finds

#353

Post by golergka »

RoyalHenOil wrote: post #232
golergka wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you perceive somebody who needs held and requires it as injustice? Helping others is an ethical thing, the right thing to do, but never an obligation that we owe them.

They probably have a high degree of empathy and feel intrinsically moved to make ethical decisions. Autistic people can have high empathy or low empathy, just like anyone else.

As I already answered elsewhere, empathy and justice are not the same thing, and it's a bit irritating that people don't observe separation of concerns principle.

Re: People with autism less likely to succumb to bystander effect, research finds

#354

Post by tysam_and »

swayvil wrote: post #194
akomtu wrote: post #134

"Autists ignore the herd mentality" in other words.

Autists are like a computer without a network connection. They have to write all their software themselves. Which has advantages and disadvantages. Also they don't get spam or facebook.

oh we get spam, all right. wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too much of it.

Re: People with autism less likely to succumb to bystander effect, research finds

#355

Post by mjburgess »

MacsHeadroom wrote: post #347
mjburgess wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'this' refers to my position. As far as the topic goes, the topic is about how emotional disregulation in autistic people can lead to feelings of injustice and concequentially hostile behaviour. Dogs and their owners are just an illustrative case.

As an autistic person, your sense of (in)justice matches mine. I see no greater injustice than the oppression of arbitrary authority (e.g. dog leashing signs); and no worse person than those who perpetuate it.

I am also autistic :)

I classify it into three tribes, using neutral language: the organisers, the dreamers and the demystifies.

Organising autistic people are highly conscientious, motivated by (often disregulated) compassion, rule-imposing, morality is quite personal and imposing, etc. -- board games, civil service, etc. They feel controlled by others having too much freedom, their unexpected behaviour makes them feel unsafe.

The dreamers do not follow any rules, create rich fantasy worlds, like fiction, like high moral principles -- morality is monkish, self-imposing, sacrificial. They feel controlled by too much detail, too many tasks -- they want to live in a removed space.

The demystifiers are ultra pragmatists in many areas (but not all), like non-fiction, are suspicious of 'moral formulas', are suspicious of fantasy, and so on. They feel controlled by others trying to define the bounds of acceptable behaviour. They want to live in a space where everyone is maximally accepted for their invidual preferences.

We're all mixtures, but I find I cannot abide people of the first tribe -- and my friends belong to the other two. That I also have ADHD means I tend to sit across the latter two, depending on the area.

But in general, i'm ruthelessly sceptical of the imaginary worlds people create to make meaning in the world; very sceptical of abstraction in morality; very sceptical of lack of abstraction in philosophy; and so on.

In otherwords, i'm very sceptical of certain emotions (compassion, wonder, ...) and very fond of others (irony, say, esp.).

I think having ADHD also makes you more likely to be in the latter two tribes -- i think the classical popular presentation of autistic personalities lie much more in the first category.

Re: People with autism less likely to succumb to bystander effect, research finds

#356

Post by PH95VuimJjqBqy »

mjburgess wrote: post #348
PH95VuimJjqBqy wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_dog_attacks_in_t... > Was babysitting a family members Pit Bull mix. Her family believes the fatal attack occurred while attempting to stop a fight between the Pit Bull and her 2 Chihuahuas. ... > Bitten by the family dog while playing outside with adult supervision, later died in hospital. ... > Was at home to check on his daughters dogs when they attacked him. ... > A 6-y…

If you think that's a reply to me, you havent understood my point. I am well aware of such situations. The question is whether a particular person, in a particular park, on a particular day, with a particular dog is causing that situation. It is an absurd level of paranoia to suppose they are. Dogs kill people. People kill people. Everything is harmful to someone at somepoint. The question is whether we should go aro…

One wonders if you also rail at the authoritarian nature of stoplights.

At that on one particular 4-way with that one particular car with that one particular driver, they successfully ran a red light without causing an accident, therefore, we should all just ignore stop lights because they're an authoritarian construct designed to cow us into submission.

Or perhaps it's those authoritarian posters telling young people to use condoms. Because in that one particular bed in that one particular house with that one particular young couple they had unprotected sex without transmitting any STDs or getting pregnant, therefore we can conclude that signage telling people to use condoms is purely a social construct with no long term real world consequences.

But by all means Don Quixote, you keep fighting the good fight.

Re: People with autism less likely to succumb to bystander effect, research finds

#357

Post by PH95VuimJjqBqy »

deadbeeves wrote: post #341
InSteady wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Telling people who have different life experiences and tolerances for risk than you to "stop going outside" is childish, my dude. You seem to struggle with accepting the reality of this person's differing worldview. Maybe take a step back and realize that it's perfectly ok when people disagree with you about stuff on the internet.

I struggle to understand how an adult does not realize that leading a normal life requires taking in some amount of risk, unless the person has some kind of learning difficulty. If you want to go outside, there is a non-zero chance that you'll be mauled by a dog without a leash. There's a much greater chance that you'll be involved in a car accident, and cars are policed much more strictly than dog leashes, not to me…

> If you want to go outside, there is a non-zero chance that you'll be mauled by a dog without a leash.

That risk lessens significantly if dogs are mandated to be leashed.

unleashed dogs are regularly picked up by the city and if they're not claimed by someone w/i a specific amount of time, they're euthanised.

This isn't actually helping your case.

Re: People with autism less likely to succumb to bystander effect, research finds

#358

Post by BirdieNZ »

josephcsible wrote: post #230
BirdieNZ wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ADHD and autism are comorbid in one direction (people with autism are more likely than the general population to have ADHD, but people with ADHD are not more likely than the general population to have autism).

> people with autism are more likely than the general population to have ADHD, but people with ADHD are not more likely than the general population to have autism I'm pretty sure that's not mathematically possible. If W people have both, X people have only autism, Y people have only ADHD, and Z people have neither, can you provide values for W, X, Y, and Z that would make that claim true?

You are correct, and my memory failed me: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3876754/

People with autism are highly likely to have comorbid ADHD.

People with ADHD are more likely than normal to have autistic traits, although nowhere near as commonly as the first statement.

Re: People with autism less likely to succumb to bystander effect, research finds

#359

Post by grotted »

DiggyJohnson wrote: post #238
grotted wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you call a "superiority complex" is the exact attitude neurodivergent people face constantly

You’re arguing that feeling like everyone (or neurotypical people) is mentally disabled is not an example of superiority complex, right?

You’re arguing that feeling like everyone (or neurodivergent people) is mentally disabled is not an example of superiority complex, right?

Re: People with autism less likely to succumb to bystander effect, research finds

#360

Post by giraffe_lady »

golergka wrote: post #351
giraffe_lady wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not the person you're talking to but I am autistic and I do experience a powerful obligation to help others in need. I feel it deeply in my very soul and I always have; I experience every choice not to act on it as a crushing moral and spiritual failure. I understand this isn't typical but surely you can see that it is a possible experience of the world for some people to have?

> I do experience a powerful obligation That does not contradict my point in any way. I do experience this "obligation" too, and help others, but I don't think this word fits here. But that's just an emotion — that's not a real obligation that I actually owe somebody except for myself. Emotions are my own volition — I'm free to experience whatever I fee like. Real obligations are not; I have to respect them regardles…

I don't understand the distinction you're trying to make and judging from the other comments I think its significance might be peculiar to you.
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