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The Beer Game -or- Why Apple Can’t Build iPads in the US

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Re: The Beer Game -or- Why Apple Can’t Build iPads in the US

#221

Post by bdunbar »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #155
showerst wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't, because that work can't be done here economically, we've moved further up the value chain. On the flip side, let's say you want to manufacture a new custom processor for your ipad competitor, or turbine for your new 787 competitor. You won't get those things in China, at least not without significant involvement from US companies.

"You can't, because that work can't be done here economically, we've moved further up the value chain." Fundamentally I don't believe that. I could just be stupid. I see the automation that is possible in the US, the infrastructure, and you tell me that its not possible for someone to make a business out of assembling things? Sure its cheap to pull 10 dextrous laborers out of the Chinese working class and make an ass…

So tell me why that isn't possible?

I am not an economist or a business guy - I move bits for a living. But I'll take a stab at it.

what prevents a technologically sophisticated engineer from doing the same with one robot workstation and some programming?

I think that, right now, there ain't no such automation that can deliver what you want at a price/time you'll be willing to live with.

I've seen demos of such. Give it 10 years and you'll be able to custom order anything you can design, and that is legal.

Quasi-legal items ... well that's what your basement is for.

Re: The Beer Game -or- Why Apple Can’t Build iPads in the US

#222

Post by matwood »

e40 wrote: post #98
acslater00 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a myth. The US has a huge and growing manufacturing base. We make airplane engines, medical devices, computer chips; all kinds of complex, high-tech manufacturing. We have the highest manufacturing productivity per worker in the world. What we don't make anymore are the kinds of products that require rote assembly tasks, like shoes and clothes and iPads. The upshot is that we have decreasing manufacturing empl…

You realize I didn't mean we manufacture nothing, but that we manufacture much, much less than we used to, right? If we can't agree that manufacturing started to move out of the US decades ago, was accelerated by NAFTA, and that we are a consumer of goods made elsewhere (more than others are a consumer of goods made here), then this conversation isn't going to go well.

The US is manufacturing more than they ever have and it's continuing to grow. If you want to complain about the loss of manufacturing jobs complain about automation and not the incorrectly stated lack of manufacturing output.

Re: The Beer Game -or- Why Apple Can’t Build iPads in the US

#223

Post by matwood »

showerst wrote: post #110
krupan wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what you are saying, instead of investing in creating jobs for people with low skills, it would be better to invest more in helping people take the time to get training and education. Seems like having more educated people that can get higher paying jobs, which give them more disposable income and more free time, would be a much bigger win for our society than simply creating more unskilled labor jobs.

As long as you have enough low skilled people to fill the jobs (ideally, teenagers and depending on your politics, immigrants), this is absolutely true. The problem is when you fall into a situation like the one we have now, where you have hundreds of thousands of people who had decent paying low skill jobs and lost them all at once (over 5+ years, but close enough in econ terms). The right thing to say/do long term…

where you have hundreds of thousands of people who had decent paying low skill jobs and lost them all at once (over 5+ years, but close enough in econ terms).

You've hit the nail on the head. In the past when industries/jobs shifted it usually happened over a generation. People naturally retired and young people came into the workforce with more education and took jobs at the next rung up.

The current shift that happened, has happened so quickly that many people are simply left out of the job market skill wise. Hopefully young people today have watched and learned that jobs are not forever and that they have to always be pressing forward to stay current in a 'flat world' scenario.

Re: The Beer Game -or- Why Apple Can’t Build iPads in the US

#224

Post by Prophasi »

From near the end: "Obama was right in bailing out the auto industry when GM and Chrysler were going bankrupt."

It's myopic to equate GM and Chrysler with the American auto industry. My hope was that those tragically unfit companies and their corrupt unions would go bankrupt, only to have their assets swept up at fire-sale prices by a company or person willing and able to ignite a rebirth of the industry.

Sometimes you gotta clear out the brush. The old, rickety, terribly designed, onerously-high overhead, ridiculous pension brush.

Re: The Beer Game -or- Why Apple Can’t Build iPads in the US

#225

Post by webXL »

eitally wrote: post #208
jdietrich wrote: post #154

I hear a lot of people saying that America needs more manufacturing jobs, but I can't recall ever hearing anyone say that they want to spend the rest of their life doing repetitive assembly operations on a production line. We use Chinese workers because they're cheaper than robots. These are awful, tedious, soul-destroying jobs, but they're just marginally better than backbreaking agricultural labour. Nobody deserves…

1) There honestly are people who enjoy this kind of employment. 2) More usually, manufacturing work is appealing because it can be an easy springboard to a more rewarding role/career. It's still true today that thousands and thousands of Americans who have started (or are starting) their career as an assembler or machine operator have had the drive to improve their skills & knowledge and move far upward in the value…

1) I would enjoy doing this kind of work for 30 minutes, in a big factory, with cool heavy machinery. I'm sure I can find a lot of other people who would enjoy it, too. But you really think there are people who would want to "spend the rest of their life doing repetitive assembly" or that it would be good for them?

2) Why is clerical work any less appealing or rewarding in terms of being able to market oneself?

Re: The Beer Game -or- Why Apple Can’t Build iPads in the US

#226

Post by Klinky »

comex wrote: post #213
cubicle67 wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

are you referring to this? ‘I Want a Glass Screen’ In 2007, a little over a month before the iPhone was scheduled to appear in stores, Mr. Jobs beckoned a handful of lieutenants into an office. For weeks, he had been carrying a prototype of the device in his pocket. Mr. Jobs angrily held up his iPhone, angling it so everyone could see the dozens of tiny scratches marring its plastic screen, according to someone who a…

From June: http://www.ilounge.com/index.php/news/comments/apple-upgrade... "Apple also announced that the entire top surface of the iPhone, including the 3.5-inch screen, has been upgraded from plastic to optical-quality glass for better scratch resistance and visual clarity."

I don't think that helps the original story. Supposedly Jobs is telling his employees that he "wants a glass screen", yet reviews months before this supposed conversation occurred state that the iPhone is already using a glass screen. Weather or not this was the anti-scratch surface or not is hard to say, but it does cast some doubt on the story as relayed in the NYT article.

Re: The Beer Game -or- Why Apple Can’t Build iPads in the US

#227

Post by RandallBrown »

jdietrich wrote: post #154

I hear a lot of people saying that America needs more manufacturing jobs, but I can't recall ever hearing anyone say that they want to spend the rest of their life doing repetitive assembly operations on a production line. We use Chinese workers because they're cheaper than robots. These are awful, tedious, soul-destroying jobs, but they're just marginally better than backbreaking agricultural labour. Nobody deserves…

People want to do them when they pay 70k per year with excellent health benefits and excellent pensions. People want it to be like it was when the auto industry was booming. Unforunately, that just doesn't make sense.

Re: The Beer Game -or- Why Apple Can’t Build iPads in the US

#228

Post by mhartl »

Karunamon wrote: post #197
mhartl wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, the "comparative advantage" in this case results mostly of self-inflicted woulds on the part of USG. For a company with highly productive employees such as Google, the large fixed cost associated with labor-law compliance isn't that big a deal, but for low-wage jobs it can be comparable to the cash compensation. There's no shortage of low-cost laborers in the US; it's just that onerous regulations pric…

Onerous how? I'm not a business owner (well, I am, but with a staff size of one, which is mostly irrelevant to this conversation) - the regulations i've seen don't seem that bad. Could you be more specific?

See http://www.dol.gov/compliance/topics/posters.htm (among many other examples).

Re: The Beer Game -or- Why Apple Can’t Build iPads in the US

#229

Post by Karunamon »

mhartl wrote: post #228
Karunamon wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Onerous how? I'm not a business owner (well, I am, but with a staff size of one, which is mostly irrelevant to this conversation) - the regulations i've seen don't seem that bad. Could you be more specific?

See http://www.dol.gov/compliance/topics/posters.htm (among many other examples).

Just posting a number of laws does not explain how they are onerous or hard to follow. Let's see...

Minimum wage stuff, no hostile work environment, no unsafe work environment, FMLA doesn't even apply unless you have more than 50 workers, etc.

I know most of this stuff by heart just from being in the workforce, let alone an employer (who I'd assume worked for someone else at some point in their career).

Re: The Beer Game -or- Why Apple Can’t Build iPads in the US

#230

Post by mhartl »

Karunamon wrote: post #229
mhartl wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See http://www.dol.gov/compliance/topics/posters.htm (among many other examples).

Just posting a number of laws does not explain how they are onerous or hard to follow. Let's see... Minimum wage stuff, no hostile work environment, no unsafe work environment, FMLA doesn't even apply unless you have more than 50 workers, etc. I know most of this stuff by heart just from being in the workforce, let alone an employer (who I'd assume worked for someone else at some point in their career).

"Onerous" essentially means "expensive to comply with", not necessarily "hard to follow". For more detail on these sorts of issues, see, e.g., http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=1752.
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