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Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

robkhenderson.com

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Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#71

Post by NeoTar »

I find the luck vs. hard-work a weird dichotomy - both are true and both are false.

If you don't work hard, you probably won't be successful. But if hard-work were sufficient for success then the richest person in the world, or the President, or however we measure success would also the hardest working, which I don't think most people who agree with.

Similarly, although I think most sports-people would be acknowledged to be very hard-working, there is a matter of luck in their success - you need to find the right sport for you, you need to avoid injury, you need to perform at your best on the day of the big competition / when the talent-scout is visiting.

Perhaps it's just a problem of perspective - if you are relatively successful to begin with you can see that there are a lot of people less successful than you who worked harder by some metric and so would attribute success more to luck and connections than hard-work; if you are relatively unsuccessful, perhaps the correlation between success and hard-work is more immediate - you see that the people who work hard are more successful than you, and that those who slack-off are not.

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#72

Post by mrangle »

tech_ken wrote: post #67
mrangle wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the lying about the nature of "Palestinian support" continues. In spite of the protest-wide evidence at virtually every demonstration.

I suppose if I equate “retributive genocide” and “just consequences” then I can see where you’re coming from. The US made similar statements as they poured white phosphorus on Afghani children after 9/11 and I thought it was a thin argument then. I don’t find it much more convincing now. Overall I try not to lie, but given how different our experiences seem to be I’m not sure if there’s much I can say on the internet…

Will you state that Hamas should give up as a means of ending the conflict?

To test your moral and semantic consistency.

Your "retributive genocide" label doesn't hold if the conflict ends as soon as Hamas is eleminated, which it would. And which they can effect in this instant by giving up.

Not that people are obligated to or widely accepting of the morally and logically inconsistent labels of Hamas supporters. Hamas who began this conflict with a massive war crime.

Your straw man attempt is unskilled and indicative of your weak position.

You lie a lot. To yourself and to your readers. I never said "just consequences". You won't launder Hamas propaganda through this conversation. Every innocent death is an injustice on the head of Hamas and its supporters: many being Palestinian. Hamas can give up in this hour. Or better yet they can invent a time machine, return to October 6th, and cancel their plan for the massive war crime that started this.

The penalty for which, and which would save the most Palestinian lives, is Hamas giving up in the nearest possible moment.

They could have given up immediately in order to save the most possible Palestinian lives. Or moved out from behind their human shields, immediately. They didn't. Every moment that they do not is for the continuity of their war at the calculated expense of Palestinian civilian lives.

Let's see a single pro Palestine protest whose primary message is toward that single most effective goal.

inbfre your not so covert Hamas support and October 7th justifications.

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#73

Post by allemagne »

justanother wrote: post #14

Starts off with an interesting premise and makes me think, hey, maybe I should re-examine my priors, let's see the evidence. And then the evidence turns out to be something about people who "make more than $100K," and goes on to assert that they "live in gated communities" and "can afford private security." In 2023, "making over 100K" just means that you're usually on-time with your monthly housing payment. Author ma…

If we're talking a security firm paying minimum wage hired by the HOA to do rounds at a gated townhouse complex, that's not some unattainable luxury for someone making "just" $100K.

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#74

Post by tech_ken »

mrangle wrote: post #72
tech_ken wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose if I equate “retributive genocide” and “just consequences” then I can see where you’re coming from. The US made similar statements as they poured white phosphorus on Afghani children after 9/11 and I thought it was a thin argument then. I don’t find it much more convincing now. Overall I try not to lie, but given how different our experiences seem to be I’m not sure if there’s much I can say on the internet…

Will you state that Hamas should give up as a means of ending the conflict? To test your moral and semantic consistency. Your "retributive genocide" label doesn't hold if the conflict ends as soon as Hamas is eleminated, which it would. And which they can effect in this instant by giving up. Not that people are obligated to or widely accepting of the morally and logically inconsistent labels of Hamas supporters. Hama…

Sure happy to: Oct 7 was a crime and the perpetrators should face justice. Hamas should immediately disarm and leave civilian areas. I don't like reactionary Islamism, I don't believe violent terror creates political progress. Fighting this war is not productive and is harming civilians. Again: you're welcome to impute whatever motives on me or others that you want, but that doesn't make them correct.

With all that said, I will also say: the presence of Hamas members in civilian areas does not give the Israeli military legal right to kill civilians. What is being done to (and has been done to for decades) the citizens of the West Bank and Gaza by the state of Israel is a crime and its perpetrators should face justice. West Bank settlers need to leave immediately and return the stolen property to its owners. The open air prison that is the West Bank should close and the rights of its occupants should be restored. War crimes don't fix war crimes.

The most direct way to stop the mass death of Palestinian civilians is for the people killing them to stop doing that. The idea that the only response to the violence of one political faction (Hamas) is greater amounts of retributive violence until conditions are met is just the “take hostages” paradigm at another scale. The fact that any attempt to move beyond that paradigm gets labeled as like “pro terrorist propaganda” is the same stupid nonsense that embroiled the US in a costly and atrocious war for 2 decades.

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#75

Post by moribvndvs »

Sure, skepticism is a useful tool. Understanding someone’s motivations and how their wealth influences their worldview is a natural approach for assessing their position.

However, the conclusion presented here–taken at face value–is reductive and ironically spells out what appears to be the author’s own bias.

I’m not one to go out on a limb to defend affluence, but is it not enough to draw conclusions (whatever they may be) based on veracity and sound logic? Or shall we all just categorically dismiss the opinions of the person further up from you on the economic ladder?

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#76

Post by [deleted] »

mc32 wrote: post #69
less_less wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, the police harass, sometimes I get harassed but that presence is what puts a lid on crime. > I’ll put up with some harassment in exchange for fewer criminals running free. Maybe you have a specific harassment:imprisonment ratio in mind, but to me this just says "bring on the police state". > We can seek redress from the police, we cannot seek redress from criminals. You can seek it, unless of course they kill…

Compared to the alternative? I'll take the lesser of the two evils.

[deleted]

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#77

Post by xyzelement »

giraffe_lady wrote: post #25
xyzelement wrote: post #18

[flagged]

Hey could you show me an example or two of a pro-hamas rally that has happened on a college campus recently? I've been going to pro-palestine rallies because they're experiencing a genocide funded and supplied by my tax money, so I kind of consider protesting against it a right and obligation of mine. Haven't seen much mention of hamas at them though but maybe I'm not at the right ones. You could also stand to interr…

Another poster replied with the Hamas connection.

In my mind, framing anything as "pro-palestinian" too simplistic. I am a strong supporter of Israel and I am also very pro-palestinian in the sense that I hope for a solution that enables them to live in peace and prosperity.

The "nuance" is to peel back to the root causes of what's happening so things can be fixed. When people equate "responding to terrorism" with "genocide" (a stretch...) you're not talking about the issue in a way that can enable any sort of evolution.

Maybe that's a form of "luxury belief" that's being talked about here - you can throw around righteous terms w/o having to worry about solving the problem or being impacted by a lack of solution...

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#78

Post by xyzelement »

tech_ken wrote: post #50
mrangle wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They aren't speaking about protest in the interest of the human rights of Palestinians. See the fact that protestors aren't suggesting that Hamas give themselves up as a means of protecting the lives of their Palestinian human shields. Protestors want October 7th and no consequences, or limited consequences on the terms of those who would see the perpetrators keep power. Specifically, to be able to slaughter masses o…

Not all protests exist to further concrete political proposals (ex. suggestions to Hamas). Expressions of mass grief, community solidarity, and elevation of an issue which harms your neighbors are all important outcomes for people meeting en masse. You're welcome to impute whatever motives you want onto people you disagree with, but that doesn't mean you actually understand.

// Not all protests exist to further concrete political proposals (ex. suggestions to Hamas). Expressions of mass grief, community solidarity, and elevation of an issue which harms your neighbors are all important outcomes for people meeting en masse

This too smells like a "luxury belief" to me. If you're actually experiencing the problem, you want to solve stuff. You want to be practical and pragmatic because your ass is on the line -- or die as a martyr while prolonging people's suffering, but hopefully the former.

In contrast to that, things like wallowing in "mass grief" and generating a lot of noise and energy in a way that isn't aiming at making anything better is exactly the kind of thing one can easily engage in when shielded from the outcomes and failure on the actual issue.

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#79

Post by xyzelement »

tech_ken wrote: post #74
mrangle wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Will you state that Hamas should give up as a means of ending the conflict? To test your moral and semantic consistency. Your "retributive genocide" label doesn't hold if the conflict ends as soon as Hamas is eleminated, which it would. And which they can effect in this instant by giving up. Not that people are obligated to or widely accepting of the morally and logically inconsistent labels of Hamas supporters. Hama…

Sure happy to: Oct 7 was a crime and the perpetrators should face justice. Hamas should immediately disarm and leave civilian areas. I don't like reactionary Islamism, I don't believe violent terror creates political progress. Fighting this war is not productive and is harming civilians. Again: you're welcome to impute whatever motives on me or others that you want, but that doesn't make them correct. With all that s…

// The idea that the only response to the violence of one political faction (Hamas) is greater amounts of retributive violence

This seems to be the crucial flaw in your analysis - I don't see a cycle of "retributive" violence. Israel asserts the goal is to "solve this threat" not "kill as many as possible." If they could remove the threat w/o affecting civilians, they would do that. This is a qualitatively different than the Hamas strategy of intentionally targeting kindergartners as happened in Oct 7.

Re: Luxury beliefs are status symbols (2022)

#80

Post by giraffe_lady »

xyzelement wrote: post #77
giraffe_lady wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey could you show me an example or two of a pro-hamas rally that has happened on a college campus recently? I've been going to pro-palestine rallies because they're experiencing a genocide funded and supplied by my tax money, so I kind of consider protesting against it a right and obligation of mine. Haven't seen much mention of hamas at them though but maybe I'm not at the right ones. You could also stand to interr…

Another poster replied with the Hamas connection. In my mind, framing anything as "pro-palestinian" too simplistic. I am a strong supporter of Israel and I am also very pro-palestinian in the sense that I hope for a solution that enables them to live in peace and prosperity. The "nuance" is to peel back to the root causes of what's happening so things can be fixed. When people equate "responding to terrorism" with "g…

Yeah or you could dismiss a genocide as "responding to terrorism" for example, I guess. You might be on to something here.
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