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The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

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Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#571

Post by megous »

YZF wrote: post #554
megous wrote: post #552

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Israel's PR sucks and it's not that powerful. Public opinion changes on a dime. Not really. It's pretty rabidly pro genocide and pro Israel in my country. I don't know what would have to happen for this to change. Minister of defense even suggested leaving UN after the last UN GA vote. > I'm not denying there was violence against Arabs by Jews. I'm not denying there's settler harassment and land grabs. That does no…

I'm curious what country you're from and what's your connection to the conflict if any. For what it's worth I live in Canada (you might call me a refugee from this conflict which isn't far from the truth) and I have family in that region. I agree random cherry picking leads nowhere. Violence on one side doesn't justify the violence on the other is a bit of a tricky statement. Sometimes violence is justified so contex…

International law is complicated. It allows comingling of combatants and health care workers if the combatants are not engaging in hostilities, but are just assisting the workers. There's also issue of proportionality. You can't bomb hospital with 10000 people if you see 10 people with guns there. You'd still be required to attempt to target combatants and avoid civilian harm. I'd leave it to the lawyers.

I'm in Czechia, a country that supports Israel unconditionally, without an ounce of sympathy for Palestinians. Vast majority of comments on news articles that allow commenting just call for genocide, for leveling the place, justify killing children, call Gazan's not human, express excitement when they are being killed, etc. (yes we have laws against genocide and incitement to genocide) Politicians are not much better, except they're just acting out callous disregard for human beings on the "other side". Media is not showing or describing the human toll in Gaza pretty much at all. A country that sold a lot of planes and weapons to Israel in 47/48 during the arms embargo.

You can show people videos like these, and they'd still tell you it's Palestinian's own fault, and they'd still vote even against an unenforcible, largely symbolic resolution calling for a meaningful ceasefire and distribution of aid, so that there's at least an anesthetic, and safe route to get these patients transfered outside of Gaza.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Palestine/comments/17jfd8o/warning_...

https://www.reddit.com/r/Palestine/comments/17jeq4r/kids_inj...

https://www.reddit.com/r/Palestine/comments/17c269h/saving_a...

https://www.reddit.com/r/Palestine/comments/17c9igd/israel_h...

Or who can scroll a few weeks back through this this https://t.me/s/eyeonpal and think that killing, maiming and terrorizing these people in such horrendous ways, and continuing to opress them after the war, will not make them susceptible to even more radical views than what Hamas have now in the future.

Or the news like:

"Israeli Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich says he ordered a halt to transfer of funds to the Palestinian Authority as a result of, what he says, their “support” for Hamas’s October 7 attack.

“I would like to inform you that I have instructed the Finance Ministry to stop the transfer of payments this month,” Smotrich said in a letter to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, quoted by the Israeli media."

a day after warnings about "explosive situation in West Bank" from security services. It all almost seems designed to trigger as much mayhem as possible, just to guarantee some uprising there. Defunding PA will not make it stronger. It's guaranteed to make it look impotent and useless in people's eyes and make them turn elsewhere.

Anyway, I cope by reading books and learning, so I can confront the ignorance in my country.

> If such an attack was conducted on your community, how do you think your country would/should respond?

My country was occupied twice. It didn't fight back, and just accepted the fate. (aside from people joining foreign legion or partisans, during WW2)

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#572

Post by lobocinza »

bluish29 wrote: post #356
invalidname wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again. I don't have that but you don't have the counter evidence that it didn't exist. Show me evidence of any bombing from any western country in any campaign ever... I get that Israel should be held to a higher standard than the Hamas. But your specific attitude makes no sense. Intelligence information is internal, wartime bombings target decisions are privileged information.

> I don't have that but you don't have the counter evidence that it didn't exist This is not the problem, people who claim something have to provide the evidence if asked, you don't respond to them by re-directing the question and ask them for counter-proof. At least in the normal world. I don't know about you. > I get that Israel should be held to a higher standard than the Hamas Providing evidence to claims is now…

> Providing evidence to claims is now a higher standard? man you live in a wild world.

Yep, that's the world we live in. Politicians, corporations, journalists frequently don't. Even "scientists" from time to time fake data & results. Military at least have a valid reason for not publicizing intel, specially in times of war.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#573

Post by hbt »

edanm wrote: post #568
hbt wrote: post #566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> fear of a wider conflict. A lot of people share concerns regarding potential escalation in the region, although I hold a different perspective on Israel's vulnerability to annihilation. There may be retaliatory actions, yet it is evident that the United States is providing support, as demonstrated by the presence of two (or three) carriers ready for engagement. On the other hand, Gaza faces a significant threat of…

> A lot of people share concerns regarding potential escalation in the region, although I hold a different perspective on Israel's vulnerability to annihilation. I mean, I think it's unlikely Israel will be completely annihilated, but a larger conflict in which we are attacked from several different countries can be devastating. And it's definitely a real possibility that Israel could be conquered. > It is not a matt…

Sorry, when you accuse dead children of planting bombs and deny/minimize the documented crimes against medical personnel shot with explosive bullets https://youtu.be/HnZSaKYmP2s?t=3152 as "defending the border"; there is no talking while remaining diplomatic here.

Force is the only thing you will respect and is why Hamas exists. Until Israel starts treating others with a semblance of humanity, there will never be peace.

If you visit Canada, feel free to say hi. Perhaps I could introduce you to my jewish neighbor (and Israeli reservist) who hopped on the first plane to go commit war crimes. Only a few weeks vacation to commit atrocities and he will be back. Of course, no one will call him a terrorist or war criminal or hold him accountable; hell, he even gets called "Canadian" despite not hesitating to obey the orders of a foreign government.

All cool and normal.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#574

Post by edanm »

hbt wrote: post #573
edanm wrote: post #568

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A lot of people share concerns regarding potential escalation in the region, although I hold a different perspective on Israel's vulnerability to annihilation. I mean, I think it's unlikely Israel will be completely annihilated, but a larger conflict in which we are attacked from several different countries can be devastating. And it's definitely a real possibility that Israel could be conquered. > It is not a matt…

Sorry, when you accuse dead children of planting bombs and deny/minimize the documented crimes against medical personnel shot with explosive bullets https://youtu.be/HnZSaKYmP2s?t=3152 as "defending the border"; there is no talking while remaining diplomatic here. Force is the only thing you will respect and is why Hamas exists. Until Israel starts treating others with a semblance of humanity, there will never be pea…

> Sorry, when you accuse dead children of planting bombs and deny/minimize the documented crimes against medical personnel shot

Ummm, I didn't accuse any dead children of planting bombs. And what I deny is that there is large-scale planned killing of journalists, I certainly don't deny that it ever happened.

> Perhaps I could introduce you to my jewish neighbor (and Israeli reservist) who hopped on the first plane to go commit war crimes.

You, on the other hand, flat out say that someone flying to Israel to defend their country is literally going to commit war crimes. Unless you know something more specific about what your neighbor is going to do, that's a pretty serious accusation to make.

So, just to know - is there anything at all that Israel could do right now that wouldn't be considered a war crime? Or do you honestly believe that the only moral move Israel can make at this point is to lay down our guns and, what, hope for the best?

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#575

Post by matsemann »

lobocinza wrote: post #570
matsemann wrote: post #562

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't support Hamas. They're terrorists as well. But there is no good/bad side here. Don't use one side being bad to excuse the atrocities done by the other side. It's sickening how you and others excuse the killings of thousand of innocent children just because those bombs might also kill a few from Hamas. All you wrote about war crimes is exactly what Isreal does as well. If you can't see that, you should think h…

You attempted to create a false symmetry while appealing to emotion. And didn't answer my questions. > you should think hard about what propaganda you're listening to. I listen to both. It's just that Israel at least say some truth (that can be independently verified) while Hamas only lies and play victim. > But maybe it's a coping mechanism? I'm far from these events. Maybe you are the one coping and avoid unpleasan…

You're the one trying to create a false symmetry, by saying one either has to support Hamas or Israel. But no, I don't. One can condemn both. What I support is the innocent civilians and kids.

There is no way to support Israels bombings, killings thousands of innocent children, no matter how it's framed. If you do, you might as well spell it straight out instead of hiding behind weak arguments: you support the killing of children.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#576

Post by lobocinza »

matsemann wrote: post #575
lobocinza wrote: post #570

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You attempted to create a false symmetry while appealing to emotion. And didn't answer my questions. > you should think hard about what propaganda you're listening to. I listen to both. It's just that Israel at least say some truth (that can be independently verified) while Hamas only lies and play victim. > But maybe it's a coping mechanism? I'm far from these events. Maybe you are the one coping and avoid unpleasan…

You're the one trying to create a false symmetry, by saying one either has to support Hamas or Israel. But no, I don't. One can condemn both. What I support is the innocent civilians and kids. There is no way to support Israels bombings, killings thousands of innocent children, no matter how it's framed. If you do, you might as well spell it straight out instead of hiding behind weak arguments: you support the killin…

Signaling virtue isn't the same as being virtuous.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#577

Post by lobocinza »

invalidname wrote: post #507
stjohnswarts wrote: post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean their main objective is to decimate Hamas as an entity in Gaza, they know they'll never get all of them but destroying all their infrastructure and weapons (and other) caches along with their leadership is critical. I'm sure they know they'll never end the movement,but they can destroy nearly all their large scale capabilities.

There is a way to end the movement and that was what Rabin tried to do in 1992. The Oslo accord was about making peace with the more moderate PLO. The idea was that the Palestinian people themselves would reject the doctrine of the Hamas and get rid of it. Personally I think it could have worked given time and more intelligence work but now it will be much harder. The Hamas controlled the school system in Gaza. I jus…

Generations entirely brainwashed into Jihad. Have you seen "Tomorrow's Pioneers"?

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#578

Post by lobocinza »

hackerlight wrote: post #441
peteradio wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you want the right-wing zealots in power to eject themselves? Or you expect a ground swell of support for left candidates who would tend to favor making peace with an enemy who just attacked you? Best case is that Hamas is completely routed (who knows) and Bibi takes all the flak for the war crimes and what have you. What happens if Israel does what you say but are still suffering attacks? How much antisemitism ex…

> So you want the right-wing zealots in power to eject themselves? I want the US to force their hand to stop the invasion. Then Netanyahu's reckoning will come with the Israeli population. Likud needs this invasion to happen to distract the population from accountability. But if the US forces them to not invade, that reckoning can come sooner. > What happens if Israel does what you say but are still suffering attacks…

> Heck, get some security assurances from the US as part of a ceasefire agreement with Hamas.

That didn't work for Ukraine.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#579

Post by hbt »

edanm wrote: post #574
hbt wrote: post #573

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, when you accuse dead children of planting bombs and deny/minimize the documented crimes against medical personnel shot with explosive bullets https://youtu.be/HnZSaKYmP2s?t=3152 as "defending the border"; there is no talking while remaining diplomatic here. Force is the only thing you will respect and is why Hamas exists. Until Israel starts treating others with a semblance of humanity, there will never be pea…

> Sorry, when you accuse dead children of planting bombs and deny/minimize the documented crimes against medical personnel shot Ummm, I didn't accuse any dead children of planting bombs. And what I deny is that there is large-scale planned killing of journalists, I certainly don't deny that it ever happened. > Perhaps I could introduce you to my jewish neighbor (and Israeli reservist) who hopped on the first plane to…

I honestly believe when Israel can mount a siege of Gaza in less than a few hours, have the city completely surrounded and cut off food, electricity, water, fuel, communications and bombard at will; it's not a war. It's a massacre as you have overwhelming force and sustain no military losses (since the siege began).

I'm sorry zionists thought that they could steal people's land, force them out of their homes, kill the ones who resist, put the rest behind a fence, treat them for generations with no humanity and act surprised when the oppressed hop the fence, return to their homes and still have the house keys to massacre the intruders and thiefs occupying their property. Unlike Israel, Hamas doesn't have a fancy prison system to lock up Israeli children and show them what "humane treatment" really means.

But hey, I apologize if I can't continue this back-and-forth banter with you. I highly doubt I can change your mind, just as you won't be changing mine. The footage I'm seeing only confirms my belief that there's a slow and deliberate genocide happening. No amount of fancy rhetoric can justify bombing hospitals just to close a tunnel or destroy a weapons depot, or whatever excuse they come up with. It's as simple as that.

This level of carnage and punishment inflicted on an entire population is absolutely unjustified. Sadly, I have no power to stop it, but I won't let Israel get away with washing off all the blood with empty words of forgiveness and forgetfulness. This will forever stain your civilization, just like Germany has been marked by the Nazi regime. And unlike the Germans, you will never learn or grow from this. Instead, you'll keep playing the victim card.

Re: The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

#580

Post by lobocinza »

brucethemoose2 wrote: post #366
invalidname wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's true and I don't think Israel has a choice. It won't get every single Hamas operative but it can get most of them and leave the rest in hiding. Israel needs to prove that it *can* do that otherwise it won't have the deterrence factor that keeps it safe. The question is what will fill the void after Israel withdraws. Biden discussed something that sounded a lot like a marshal plan which I hope wil…

> It won't get every single Hamas operative but it can get most of them and leave the rest in hiding. When has this ever been a success in recent military history? Hamas is dug in like a tick, in a big city, with international Patrons. Israel is not a superpower. Major powers have "gotten most of them" but unequivocally lost much more favorable insurgent situations.

It wouldn't be the first time they occupy Gaza but the war is a short term measure. Long term they need to transfer the control to the PLO or an Arab coalition.
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