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Ivan Illich’s radical critique of modern certitudes (2021)

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Re: Ivan Illich’s radical critique of modern certitudes (2021)

#61
post #26

I dislike reading this kind of article, where it feels like the author swallowed a thesaurus and is using every second word to (often unnecessarily) display how clever they are. Note how actually clever texts (probably including the source texts that this is about!) are rarely written like that.

[deleted]

Re: Ivan Illich’s radical critique of modern certitudes (2021)

#63
post #25
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was very confused for a moment why HN promotes russian fascism :)

Having some difficulty with the meaning of words, hm?

You're the one who complained about fancy vocabulary.

Re: Ivan Illich’s radical critique of modern certitudes (2021)

#64
post #26

I dislike reading this kind of article, where it feels like the author swallowed a thesaurus and is using every second word to (often unnecessarily) display how clever they are. Note how actually clever texts (probably including the source texts that this is about!) are rarely written like that.

Holy cow you were not kidding…. > Illich’s central contention was that persons are relational beings embedded in a matrix of the natural cosmos, convivial community with others and, as a fallen but still faithful priest, God’s grace. As the maverick thinker saw it, Western modernity rent asunder this multidimensional oneness of “Life.” The whole thing is full of this… sounds like Depak Chopra level word salad trying…

It might be nice if

>As the maverick thinker saw it

was just "As he saw it"

and maybe take out the fallen but still faithful priest bit as well.

but the rest of the text is pretty straightforward what is meant.

Synonyms suggested - torn apart instead of rent asunder.

Re: Ivan Illich’s radical critique of modern certitudes (2021)

#65
post #26

I dislike reading this kind of article, where it feels like the author swallowed a thesaurus and is using every second word to (often unnecessarily) display how clever they are. Note how actually clever texts (probably including the source texts that this is about!) are rarely written like that.

Holy cow you were not kidding…. > Illich’s central contention was that persons are relational beings embedded in a matrix of the natural cosmos, convivial community with others and, as a fallen but still faithful priest, God’s grace. As the maverick thinker saw it, Western modernity rent asunder this multidimensional oneness of “Life.” The whole thing is full of this… sounds like Depak Chopra level word salad trying…

[deleted]

Re: Ivan Illich’s radical critique of modern certitudes (2021)

#66
I found Deschooling Society book on my dad's bookshelf about 9 years ago. No idea why he had it. I quit university about 3/4 way through reading it. I'm poorly adapted to the cadence and mechanisms of institutional education and this guy provided an alternative that I have employed since to an effect further than I had imagined was possible.

Re: Ivan Illich’s radical critique of modern certitudes (2021)

#67
post #50
post #28

> critique of modern certitudes > it’s bottom of the barrel degrowthism Every. Single. Time.

Rather this is a typical HN religous-substituting faith in "progress" (of the non-reflective "just more of everything" variety), and a knew-jerk reaction to any mention of limits to growth and other concerns aside from enlargement. Every. Single. Time.

I think the stance comes from one's position towards the "want for more" attitude in humans.

If you think the thirst for material wealth and welfare can be somehow limited or contained at scale, you will find the concept of de-growth very appealing, because it solves a bunch of big problems we have.

If you don't think such thirst can be limited, which is arguably what modern history might suggest, then the concept is clearly impossible to realize and not worth discussing.

Re: Ivan Illich’s radical critique of modern certitudes (2021)

#68
Something that goes without comment by the uncritical author is Illich's vile comment that medical science and its quest to extend life at all costs "extends the suffering of cripples". In other words, he doesn't see the life of disabled people as having value.

Re: Ivan Illich’s radical critique of modern certitudes (2021)

#69

This is great, "The Virtue Of Enoughness" Kind of how I try and live, there are some things I kind of need like coffee and internet.

The problems typically arise when someone decides that everything everyone needs is coffee and internet. What is enough for you might not be enough for someone else, particularly people who grew up resenting the fact that they only had a few things.

Re: Ivan Illich’s radical critique of modern certitudes (2021)

#70
post #26

I dislike reading this kind of article, where it feels like the author swallowed a thesaurus and is using every second word to (often unnecessarily) display how clever they are. Note how actually clever texts (probably including the source texts that this is about!) are rarely written like that.

Holy cow you were not kidding…. > Illich’s central contention was that persons are relational beings embedded in a matrix of the natural cosmos, convivial community with others and, as a fallen but still faithful priest, God’s grace. As the maverick thinker saw it, Western modernity rent asunder this multidimensional oneness of “Life.” The whole thing is full of this… sounds like Depak Chopra level word salad trying…

ChatGPT to the rescue:

Illich's main argument revolved around the idea that individuals are inherently social creatures, connected to the natural world, their communities, and, in his view as a religious person, to God's grace. He believed that Western modernity disrupted this holistic interconnectedness of life.

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