People with autism less likely to succumb to bystander effect, research finds • Hacker News Board

Re: People with autism less likely to succumb to bystander effect, research finds

#51

Post by mjburgess » Mon, Oct 30, 2023, 11:58 AM UTC

Podgajski wrote: post #46

mjburgess wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd imagine the person walking his dog was making the area no less safe for anyone else. Maybe people might feel safer. The rule, in the abstract, can be given some plausible 'social good' defense -- many rules can, even the most insidious. No doubt, on extreme averages, dogs being on leashes marginally improves the on-average saftey. But this 'on-average' is a radical abstraction. What it says is that the dog's free…

For some reason you don’t think of the sign as conversation. Why not? Our community has put up the sign and when I read that sign I engage in that conversation. Rules that are agreed on are not authoritarian unless we have no choice in changing them. Since we vote, we have a say on changing them. What you’re saying is, we should have no laws and do whatever we want. We should have no rules and do whatever we want. I’…

We can have signs and rules, and the rest of it. But we're talking about you wanting to go to the police to enforce one of them.

If a sign is seen as a 'strong suggestion', as 'advisable' or a 'please do this' then there's no issue -- that's what signs are.

But you didnt see the sign that way; and that's what i'm responding to. Your impulse was to bring the disciplinary arm of the state to bare to enforce someone's opinion of how a park should be run.

This is quite the opposite of being critically engaged with the nature of signs

Re: People with autism less likely to succumb to bystander effect, research finds

#52

Post by phito » Mon, Oct 30, 2023, 12:00 PM UTC

JonChesterfield wrote: post #19

Podgajski wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi, I posted this study because I have Asperger’s and this is what was always said about my behavior. Yesterday I literally had to stop myself from sending photographs to the police of a guy walking his dog off leash in a park that has signs forbidding it. And my reason for wanting to call the police is because of my compassion for the dog or for anyone the dog to hurt. Not so much that it was only that the man was d…

Dogs like being off lead. Running around is sort of their driving motive.

Dogs can be unpredictable, and they're powerful animals. They could start fighting with another dog, run away and endanger themselves, do their needs in someone's front garden, eat something dangerous, or someone else walking by might be scared of dogs. I have seen occurrences of all of these situations.

It's really irresponsible to walk a dog unleashed, especially in populated areas.

Re: People with autism less likely to succumb to bystander effect, research finds

#53

Post by jprete » Mon, Oct 30, 2023, 12:00 PM UTC

Yoric wrote: post #7

Anecdotal evidence: around me, several kids are on the autistic spectrum. It's hard to prevent them from intervening when they notice what they feel is an injustice, towards them or others. At some point, this included one of them regularly attempting to rescue babies from baby trolleys, which they considered a prison. Fortunately, the would-be rescuer was only aged 3 at the time.

From the outside, it's very very difficult to tell what the actual motivation is. As a kid on the spectrum, I learned very early to shut up about everything genuine in myself, because peoples' social reactions were so painful. I still have to unlearn that decades later.

I did things similar to what the kids you mention do, and I think it was out of a very strong desire to "make incorrect things correct" rather than "make unjust things just". Both of those urges are out of the mainstream, but if a person acts in a way that matches both, then there's strong social pressure on everyone else to treat it positively.

Re: People with autism less likely to succumb to bystander effect, research finds

#54

Post by verisimi » Mon, Oct 30, 2023, 12:02 PM UTC

mjburgess wrote: post #13

Podgajski wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi, I posted this study because I have Asperger’s and this is what was always said about my behavior. Yesterday I literally had to stop myself from sending photographs to the police of a guy walking his dog off leash in a park that has signs forbidding it. And my reason for wanting to call the police is because of my compassion for the dog or for anyone the dog to hurt. Not so much that it was only that the man was d…

It might be important to realise that signs and rules are made up by sign-makers and rule-makers; often to their benefit. Reality doesnt come with a rule about leashing dogs on grass. It feels like something is going wrong here in your connecting a dog being off a leash with somehow empathy for the dog. I read your impulse to act here as your mind being hijacked by the sign-maker to conscript you into their preferred…

Yes, well said.

Is it awareness and an application of injustice, or awareness of certain rules that are being applied only partially - the rules could go further.

Because justice and riles are assuredly not the same thing. Who knows the truth to determine what is just for others?

Ultimately, justice is best expressed by the golden rule: Do not treat others in ways that you would not like to be treated.

Dogs are at a different level to people too, so that is a further 'justice complexity' to be navigated by the individual.

Perhaps autistic people struggle with some of the nuances, and prefer the rules rather than the idea of justice or doing right. I think most people are like that.

Re: People with autism less likely to succumb to bystander effect, research finds

#55

Post by anonym29 » Mon, Oct 30, 2023, 12:03 PM UTC

OfSanguineFire wrote: post #41

js8 wrote: post #23

There was a similar article postulating that dissidents (for example from Eastern Europe) are often on the spectrum, for that very reason, if they see injustice, they are vocal about it.

If you can, please link to it. I would like to read it. Because a prominent feature of dissidents in the USSR and Putin’s Russia is that they often retreated into private worlds (samizdat literature, organizing cultural events privately in their own flats, writing for their desk drawer) instead of overtly challenging the regime. To the point where such dissidents can be suspicious of those who are vocal: people who a…

Go ask American conservatives today how they feel about groups that allege to publicly challenge the uniparty regime here, like "Patriot Front". Every conservative I know views those groups as honeypots for dissidents being operated by the regime itself (FBI, FBI informants etc).

They have their own substack and medium feeds that are unshackled by conventional reporting standards and frequently contrast deeply against regime narratives, be they COVID, Ukraine, Jan 6th, etc.

They have their own social circles, which they ideologically police to make sure that those holding regime viewpoints are not invited to private social events.

The way you've described the culture of dissidence in the USSR and Russia sounds eerily familiar, taking a look at US dissidents today.

Re: People with autism less likely to succumb to bystander effect, research finds

#56

Post by Podgajski » Mon, Oct 30, 2023, 12:03 PM UTC

scns wrote: post #48

Podgajski wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of dogs also like to bite people, or scare birds, or scare other dogs…. Just because something likes to do something does not mean we should let it do it.

A few dogs are so aggressive that they bite people. Usually the owner is the problem.

So the owner should be on a leash?

(coming back to this I realize that laws and rules are what put people on leashes.)

And this would mean the owner who don’t put their dogs on leashes are also the problem.

Also

“More than 4.5 million people are bitten by dogs each year in the United States”

That’s a lot…

https://www.avma.org/resources-tools/pet-owners/dog-bite-pre...

Re: People with autism less likely to succumb to bystander effect, research finds

#57

Post by ikedeno » Mon, Oct 30, 2023, 12:03 PM UTC

mrweasel wrote: post #31

RecycledEle wrote: post #8

[flagged]

For adults at least there's also the calculation of "What will this cost me?" You will see people with Downs syndrome force themselves between people fighting without considering that they might themselves be hurt, while the rest of us "normies" makes the calculation that there are twenty guys beating up a single person and they could just as easily take you out as well. In professional settings we see people not spe…

"What will this cost me?" - Now it will cost you "the other bystanders will think I'm autistic", after normies absorb this headline.

Re: People with autism less likely to succumb to bystander effect, research finds

#58

Post by pnut » Mon, Oct 30, 2023, 12:05 PM UTC

Podgajski wrote: post #10

Yoric wrote: post #7

Anecdotal evidence: around me, several kids are on the autistic spectrum. It's hard to prevent them from intervening when they notice what they feel is an injustice, towards them or others. At some point, this included one of them regularly attempting to rescue babies from baby trolleys, which they considered a prison. Fortunately, the would-be rescuer was only aged 3 at the time.

Hi, I posted this study because I have Asperger’s and this is what was always said about my behavior. Yesterday I literally had to stop myself from sending photographs to the police of a guy walking his dog off leash in a park that has signs forbidding it. And my reason for wanting to call the police is because of my compassion for the dog or for anyone the dog to hurt. Not so much that it was only that the man was d…

Curious what stopped you.

Consider that narc'ing people for victimless crimes is something that can be done to you as well, and you definitely will make enemies and earn a reputation by casually reporting people to the police... so maybe just "leave people alone" is a good default policy.

Re: People with autism less likely to succumb to bystander effect, research finds

#59

Post by mjburgess » Mon, Oct 30, 2023, 12:05 PM UTC

veeti wrote: post #50

mjburgess wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might be important to realise that signs and rules are made up by sign-makers and rule-makers; often to their benefit. Reality doesnt come with a rule about leashing dogs on grass. It feels like something is going wrong here in your connecting a dog being off a leash with somehow empathy for the dog. I read your impulse to act here as your mind being hijacked by the sign-maker to conscript you into their preferred…

There are literally countless videos online of unleashed dogs attacking other dogs, animals, children and adults. Even if you think your precious Fifi would never do such a thing a leash keeps them safe and close to you in the event something happens or scares them off. For this reason using a leash is not only a recommendation on a sign but the law in many locales.

I don't have a dog, but i've known many and never a dangerous one. In the UK its very common to have large parks with dogs just running around; I'm not aware of any cases where this has caused a problem.

I've no objection to the rule. My issue is with how the rule is being interpreted. If someone were to ask, 'please keep a leash on' i'd expect people to be polite enough to do so.

But that's the gravity of the situation here. In almost no universe is the guy we're talking about one of these fringe youtube dog owners you're having some fantasy about.

This is the problem with these abstractions: they invite people to have fantasies of catastrophe rather than engage with the reality in front of them

And what are these fantasy scenarios but just another mechanism by which a brutal system of values comes to be imposed?

Consider the police coming out here and enforcing such a value on this guy walking his dog. Concretely, which is worse: police discipline or a dog in a park ?

Re: People with autism less likely to succumb to bystander effect, research finds

#60

Post by rjmill » Mon, Oct 30, 2023, 12:09 PM UTC

mo_42 wrote: post #24

Podgajski wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi, I posted this study because I have Asperger’s and this is what was always said about my behavior. Yesterday I literally had to stop myself from sending photographs to the police of a guy walking his dog off leash in a park that has signs forbidding it. And my reason for wanting to call the police is because of my compassion for the dog or for anyone the dog to hurt. Not so much that it was only that the man was d…

Can you explain how it's more compassionate for a dog to be kept leashed? In my experience dogs are less stressed without a leash. The primary reason for using a leash is that I feel compassionate about people who are afraid of dogs or don't like them. Seeing a leashed dog makes them feel more secure.

I'm not GP, but I agree with their statement about it being more compassionate.

It's a safety issue for the dog. I recently saw an off-leash dog get freaked out and run out into a busy road. (The dog didn't get hurt luckily, but it was a horrifying experience for all involved.)

Sure, your dog might be "better" than that. But it's not a risk I'm willing to take with my dog.