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Ivan Illich’s radical critique of modern certitudes (2021)

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Re: Ivan Illich’s radical critique of modern certitudes (2021)

#31
post #26

I dislike reading this kind of article, where it feels like the author swallowed a thesaurus and is using every second word to (often unnecessarily) display how clever they are. Note how actually clever texts (probably including the source texts that this is about!) are rarely written like that.

[deleted]

Re: Ivan Illich’s radical critique of modern certitudes (2021)

#32
post #28

> critique of modern certitudes > it’s bottom of the barrel degrowthism Every. Single. Time.

I'll add in that "we should get rid of all these modern flimflam" is generally a rallying cry by quite well off people who choose not to see the obvious future of poor people getting squelched as resources dry up. There are a lot of problems faced by modern society, and those problems are uncomfortably complicated. Most people don't understand the details of them. However, the incredible productivity of modern humans is one of several fragile bricks in the wall between us and the unspeakably horrible lifestyles of centuries ago.

People may not like industrial society. It may even kill us all, looking at the gently escalating tensions between nuclear powers. But the fact is it has been far better than all the alternatives on the table. The grass is not greener over there.

Re: Ivan Illich’s radical critique of modern certitudes (2021)

#33

Has anyone read any of his books? What do you think?

I have. And I think it is definitely worth it to read it, because he brings a lot of clarity to a lot of things.

Buuuuuut. In the end, I think Illich fail his own test. He claims to analyze systemic impacts, but fail to recognize the systemic impacts of his own solutions.

I always use the "speed" example for this. Illich basically advocate for more or less banning the use of any mean of transportation faster than a bicycle. The arguments do make sense actually, in a lot of ways, and it is important to keep these in mind. But he acknowledge that there are real use case for engine driven vehicules and fast speed, for things like medical or emergency needs. Make sense right?

So from his pov, noone should have engine car, except for ambulance, medical transportation (like transplant), fire engine, etc. Where it becomes a net good.

What he utterly fail to realise is that without the fast transportation and the whole system built to ... actually build and distribute these cars to everyone, then building these emergency vehicules and developing the engineering for them cannot happen.

Not only it is cost prohibitive (because of reuse of means of production, mass production impact on cost, etc) but also it is really hard to actually engineer this stuff without a lot of experiments and needs for it, which do not happen if you restrict the use of these stuff to a limited niche.

Engineering need practical use of the tool to be able to learn about the use to make it more efficient and better to the point that it benefits everyone. That of course does not negate the point that these technologies do have negative impact on society. But thinking that you can wholly separate the positive from the negative, banning the later but getting the former, is not as simple as calling it out. You need to consider the systemic effects and really think through the long term and systemic impact of your action.

Something that Illich seems to only apply to other people actions, but not to his own remedy or analysis.

Re: Ivan Illich’s radical critique of modern certitudes (2021)

#34
post #28

> critique of modern certitudes > it’s bottom of the barrel degrowthism Every. Single. Time.

If you think growth is growing the GDP then there's nothing wrong with not growing the GDP. You can decrease the GDP and have a better quality of life.

If you think growth is producing more and more stuff, the same here, we can have a better life consuming less.

Re: Ivan Illich’s radical critique of modern certitudes (2021)

#35

Has anyone read any of his books? What do you think?

One of the notable things from "Deschooling" is his solution. Illich describes was could be thought of as Meetups using the internet. Hobbyist experts with common interests that can serve as teachers and demonstrators of skills.

One of the big insights is that today you have teachers who are certified in teaching and experts in a particular thing. The two are very rarely present in the same person.

> In deschooled society professionals could no longer claim the trust of their clients on the basis of their curricular pedigree, or ensure their standing by simply referring their clients to other professionals who approved of their schooling. Instead of placing trust in professionals, it should be possible, at any time, for any potential client to consult with other experienced clients of a professional about their satisfaction with him by means of another peer network easily set up by computer, or by a number of other means. Such networks could be seen as public utilities which permitted students to choose their teachers or patients their healers.

Re: Ivan Illich’s radical critique of modern certitudes (2021)

#36
post #33

Has anyone read any of his books? What do you think?

I have. And I think it is definitely worth it to read it, because he brings a lot of clarity to a lot of things. Buuuuuut. In the end, I think Illich fail his own test. He claims to analyze systemic impacts, but fail to recognize the systemic impacts of his own solutions. I always use the "speed" example for this. Illich basically advocate for more or less banning the use of any mean of transportation faster than a b…

> Not only it is cost prohibitive (because of reuse of means of production, mass production impact on cost, etc) but also it is really hard to actually engineer this stuff without a lot of experiments and needs for it, which do not happen if you restrict the use of these stuff to a limited niche.

Couldn't one argue that there is not that much engineering needed to keep producing emergency vehicles that we already have? It's not like an ambulance fundamentally changes every year.

Would each unit be more expensive without mass production? Most likely, but... it's not like firefighter trucks are mass-produced for people who use them to go to work, and some of them are adapted for firefighters, right? Still it seems like it's not cost-prohibitive.

Another example is military equipment, where I believe countries try to produce more locally (for obvious security reasons). Military equipment is typically much more expensive than consumer products, but still... it's there.

So it seems like it's not completely impossible, right?

Re: Ivan Illich’s radical critique of modern certitudes (2021)

#37
post #26

I dislike reading this kind of article, where it feels like the author swallowed a thesaurus and is using every second word to (often unnecessarily) display how clever they are. Note how actually clever texts (probably including the source texts that this is about!) are rarely written like that.

I was about to make the same comment. Literary magazines tend to encourage this style.

Re: Ivan Illich’s radical critique of modern certitudes (2021)

#38
post #35

Has anyone read any of his books? What do you think?

One of the notable things from "Deschooling" is his solution. Illich describes was could be thought of as Meetups using the internet. Hobbyist experts with common interests that can serve as teachers and demonstrators of skills. One of the big insights is that today you have teachers who are certified in teaching and experts in a particular thing. The two are very rarely present in the same person. > In deschooled so…

It seems like he is talking about influencers, where there is a relationship that is based on abstract metrics like number of followers and unclear success. Here I use abstract and metrics together to convey the idea that the metrics does not give a real meaning. Obviously there are many people who perfectly deserves their "followers" but it is gamed by other people removing real meaning.

Re: Ivan Illich’s radical critique of modern certitudes (2021)

#39
post #26

I dislike reading this kind of article, where it feels like the author swallowed a thesaurus and is using every second word to (often unnecessarily) display how clever they are. Note how actually clever texts (probably including the source texts that this is about!) are rarely written like that.

[dead]

Re: Ivan Illich’s radical critique of modern certitudes (2021)

#40
post #7

Not to be confused with Ivan Ilyin or with Vladimir Ilyich (Lenin).

Or with Ivan Ilyich from "The Death of Ivan Ilyich" by Tolstoy [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_Ivan_Ilyich

That's the one I was more familiar with. (Is it the same name in some sense? On the one hand it rather looks like two different transcriptions of the same name; on the other hand Illich's father wasn't Russian and the names seem to be written differently in the Russian Wikipedia: Иллич, Ильич.)
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