Not to be confused with Ivan Ilyin or with Vladimir Ilyich (Lenin).
I was very confused for a moment why HN promotes russian fascism :)
Ivan Illich’s radical critique of modern certitudes (2021)
21–30 of 183 posts
Re: Ivan Illich’s radical critique of modern certitudes (2021)
#22Related. Others? Silence Is a Commons (1983) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28431541 - Sept 2021 (17 comments) Silence Is a Commons (1983) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26007100 - Feb 2021 (31 comments) Deschooling Society (1970) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23821855 - July 2020 (195 comments) Deschooling Society - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21578620 - Nov 2019 (1 comment) Tools f…
A touch less related perhaps, but there are many links from The Convivial Society newsletter whose name is taken from Illich’s work: https://hn.algolia.com/?q=convivialsociety
Re: Ivan Illich’s radical critique of modern certitudes (2021)
#23Not to be confused with Ivan Ilyin or with Vladimir Ilyich (Lenin).
Or with Ivan Ilyich from "The Death of Ivan Ilyich" by Tolstoy [1]
Re: Ivan Illich’s radical critique of modern certitudes (2021)
#24Has anyone read any of his books? What do you think?
A great introduction to his lines of thinking was (to me) "Ivan Illich in Conversation" by David Cayley [0]. Essentially a book-length interview.
While I find him truly interesting, there is an annoyance: he is strongly critical about "traditional" school system, while holding a PhD himself. I've always found this kind of thing somewhat controversial. I wonder if he did consider dropping out during his studies; and if not, then why.
It somewhat feels like first getting the most out of a (by and large still hugely beneficial) system for your own good -- and then stating that actually, this is a remarkably harmful system.
(Side note: I read "Deschooling Society" quite a while ago; might not remember the main ideas all that well, so please correct me if this feedback is too harsh, or superficial.)
In that light, guys like the Finnish ecophilosopher (and fisherman) Pentti Linkola [1] seem more "true". As in, Linkola was heavily critical towards contemporary schooling, but he also dropped out of university at an early stage of his studies already, and (as much as I understand) lived in a cabin in the forest his entire life. It's a different path than first finishing a PhD and then becoming a notable critic of "the system". I don't think Illich would've had the same analytical capabilities and intellectual horizon if he would not have trained his thinking in a doctorate program.
Then again, Pentti Linkola's father was rector of Helsinki University, and also member of the Finnish Academy of Sciences and Letters. So I imagine Pentti the son was steeped in sciences and academic thinking at an early age already. Who knows, maybe that's what made him suspicious in the first place (no illusions?). A biography of Linkola is also published in Finland, but haven't read that one.
I will definitely read more of Illich, though. He is really clever and to the point in oh-so-many things.
0: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/253081.Ivan_Illich_in_Co...
Re: Ivan Illich’s radical critique of modern certitudes (2021)
#25Re: Ivan Illich’s radical critique of modern certitudes (2021)
#26I dislike reading this kind of article, where it feels like the author swallowed a thesaurus and is using every second word to (often unnecessarily) display how clever they are.
Note how actually clever texts (probably including the source texts that this is about!) are rarely written like that.
Re: Ivan Illich’s radical critique of modern certitudes (2021)
#27Not to be confused with Ivan Ilyin or with Vladimir Ilyich (Lenin).
Nor with Ilich Ramírez Sánchez aka Carlos the Jackal
Re: Ivan Illich’s radical critique of modern certitudes (2021)
#28> critique of modern certitudes
> it’s bottom of the barrel degrowthism
Every. Single. Time.
Re: Ivan Illich’s radical critique of modern certitudes (2021)
#29Has anyone read any of his books? What do you think?
A great introduction to his lines of thinking was (to me) "Ivan Illich in Conversation" by David Cayley [0]. Essentially a book-length interview. While I find him truly interesting, there is an annoyance: he is strongly critical about "traditional" school system, while holding a PhD himself. I've always found this kind of thing somewhat controversial. I wonder if he did consider dropping out during his studies; and i…
You can disagree with something, but still do it because your environment expects you to do it. He might not have been able to succeed in his goals if he hadn’t gotten a phd, not because of the phd itself, but how companies and people perceive those with phds. It opens doors, that would otherwise remain shut.
Similar to how no US president would ever say they don’t believe in god, as that would immediately alienate a large part of the voters.
Usually, if you want to win inside a system, it means you have to play by the rules of the system.
Re: Ivan Illich’s radical critique of modern certitudes (2021)
#30Related. Others? Silence Is a Commons (1983) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28431541 - Sept 2021 (17 comments) Silence Is a Commons (1983) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26007100 - Feb 2021 (31 comments) Deschooling Society (1970) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23821855 - July 2020 (195 comments) Deschooling Society - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21578620 - Nov 2019 (1 comment) Tools f…
A touch less related perhaps, but there are many links from The Convivial Society newsletter whose name is taken from Illich’s work: https://hn.algolia.com/?q=convivialsociety
This is a great resource to get into Ivan Illich. The writing refers a lot to Illich's work, and there are a couple of episodes where it is discussed with people close to Illich. Quite related, I'd say!
The name, however, is a play of Illich's "Tools for Conviviality" and Jaques Ellul's "The Technological Society".