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The product manager role is a mistake

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281–290 of 370 posts

Re: The product manager role is a mistake

#281

I think this phenomena is less about PMs and more about a "data driven" culture. I worked at a mobile game development company for a couple years. While the industry was young, they had some really big hits and grew to be mid sized. While I wasn't there for that era, talking to the people that were, it was mostly driven by passion and people that cared about games, and while they monetized well it wasn't the focus. H…

> since every decision required "data", innovation became impossible.

That makes me think of this quote about the "McNamara Fallacy" [0]:

> But when the McNamara discipline is applied too literally, the first step is to measure whatever can be easily measured. The second step is to disregard that which can't easily be measured or given a quantitative value. The third step is to presume that what can't be measured easily really isn't important. The fo[u]rth step is to say that what can't be easily measured really doesn't exist. This is suicide.

Or, for a punchier meme approach, this SMBC comic [1].

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McNamara_fallacy

[1] https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/rise-of-the-machines

Re: The product manager role is a mistake

#282

> You hire everyday great people. Each one needs to be great at something, obsessed by their craft, and driven by quality. You then put them together in a team, without individual responsibilities, ensuring that there’s minimal overlap in areas of greatness. My current company is full of smart people, and (for a variety of reasons) we don't have product managers. It sucks . What happens is that the things a PM does d…

Every thing you just said rings true. I went from 20 years engineering into engineering management, and took my first PM role last year. I took the role at a twenty year-old software company that's never had good product management, and the place is horrible. Over and over, the staff were pounded with "we are an engineering first company." Well, that means the engineering teams were allowed to do whatever the hell th…

> I took the role at a twenty year-old software company that's never had good product management, and the place is horrible. > Over and over, the staff were pounded with "we are an engineering first company." Well, that means the engineering teams were allowed to do whatever the hell they wanted and chase the shiny newest techs. There's 3.5 main products (really 4.5) each made from a different tech stack. There's another eight or so legacy products we have to support due to legacy demands. There's no inter-operability of standardization between products. Basically, there's no knowledge transfer, so the cost of development is through the roof.

I read this and thought you worked at my previous employer (household name in IT).

Engineering first company. Oof. This meant that as a PM, I got introduced to two of the products I'd be managing when Engineering and Architects had come up with a grand idea to build a component/subsystem to replace a previous one which had been over-engineered and never gained traction. They hadn't talked to any customers who used it, or that had liked the idea, but not the execution. They were just given a wide latitude to experiment (don't get me wrong, some experimentation and exploration is useful), got a greenlight for some time to prototype it, and did so.

And then, and only then, was I called in as a PM, and told, here's our prototype, here's some vague documentation of what we wanted to solve with this - "Now, Mr PM, can you shoehorn a Product Requirements Document around what we've already built and where we see it going, and can you do the Market Requirements Document to answer the questions we probably should have asked before getting this far?"

And then I would get catch-22s. Express doubt over the needed research and potential for the product and I was told by management that "PMs need to be passionate and fearless advocates for their products"... and then when I do try to eke something out, but lo and behold, our internal 'market', let alone customers are ambivalent about why we are working on a "v2" of this feature, when the market is either accepting the weaknesses of "v1" or have long built out their own solutions and moved on, and as a result we have a stakeholders meeting where we decide to end the experiment, and I'm chastised for "poor product management judgment" for not killing the project far earlier... the project I have no authority to kill, because it's an Engineering first company, and the project whose existence I learned of when it was tossed into my lap as a 90% complete prototype/proof of concept.

And then you have a few hundred (yep) Product Managers in our BU all trying to do their own thing, some empire-building, some truly product-focused... and it's a shit show.

I love being a product manager. I took a similar path as you... although most of my engineering background is SysAdmin/Devops/SRE/infrastructure and then management thereof. I love being a product manager, and thought that this role, at this company, would have untold potential and I could settle in, learn, grow, build from there. But it was everything from a Dilbert cartoon.

Re: The product manager role is a mistake

#283
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A project has a planned end date, a product typically doesn't.

Isn't it the other way around? Projects tend to never end. Products eventually get released.

A release ist just the begining of a product. After that you have to collect customer feedbackand figure out what to prioritize for the next release.

Re: The product manager role is a mistake

#284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really hope you're not implying that project managers are or need to be less smart than product managers. They are different disciplines, and like any profession there's likely more people who are not good at it than people that are. But I've worked with great visionary product people and excellent project and program managers (and strive to be one every day myself). Neither could do the other's job well or effecti…

I wasn’t writing a treatise on every occupation and was being a little jocular. What I’ve witnessed over a 20 year career is that weak product people devolve to mediocre project managers. It’s easier to be a shitty project manager. Good project managers are gold. I worked with one who stood out a decade ago - his leadership at execution was such that a $350M, 20 month implementation, with collaboration with construct…

> his leadership at execution was such that a $350M, 20 month implementation, with collaboration with construction, tech, and external suppliers completed 45 minutes ahead of the original schedule

This made me smile. I'm assuming you mean 45 days or something. Not that any number 'ahead of schedule' is inherently a bad thing (within reason), but my mind went to "Are there really companies out there tracking 2 year projects and counting the minutes?" (and sadly, there probably are).

Re: The product manager role is a mistake

#285

Boah... fallacies everywhere in this piece. Let's start: > Picasso, Jeff Bezos, Mozart, Steve Jobs, Nikola Tesla, Elon Musk, Robert Oppenheimer, Peter Thiel, Leonardo [... would be amazing PMs] I beg to differ. Mozart died at 35, completely indebted after years of excess drinking. Jobs ousted from his own company after poor strategic decisions and intolerable behaviour. Picasso / Leonardo were geniuses of their own w…

100 percent agree. Humans love giving credit to individuals for the achievements of a community. It's not that individual leaders aren't important, it's that we give them the lion's share of the credit.

My org is full of people who were promoted because they can talk clearly and authoritatively about the project they botched the implementation of. But then they spent 10 people's time "influencing the team" to fix. But hey, they're loud, sure of themselves, and willing to break things so they must be good

Re: The product manager role is a mistake

#286

Confusing article. “We should get rid of the PM role” but also “We still need people dedicated to do PM things… but don’t call them PMs, they’re just everyday great people.” I feel like the author had a bad experience working with a PM (the MBA comment is telling) and now wants to throw the baby out with the bath water. Business scale creates + requires role specialization. Sure, there are shitty PMs, and it’s a hard…

I truly wish (and I know some do) that MBA programs had an industry experience prerequisite.

I have 20 years IT experience. I'm a PM. I'm looking to do an MBA for knowledge, learning about more formal business understanding, etc., and to help as I advance.

The PMs I know who are similar don't get an MBA and immediately start playing fuckfuck games (to borrow from military parlance). It's those who went high school > college > MBA > managerial role, without a day's experience in the field except maybe a brief internship half way through their undergrad.

Re: The product manager role is a mistake

#287

> You hire everyday great people. Each one needs to be great at something, obsessed by their craft, and driven by quality. You then put them together in a team, without individual responsibilities, ensuring that there’s minimal overlap in areas of greatness. My current company is full of smart people, and (for a variety of reasons) we don't have product managers. It sucks . What happens is that the things a PM does d…

Want to corroborate, been through several companies and several PMs. The excellent ones are rare, and have disproportionate impact in the team's performance.

Re: The product manager role is a mistake

#289
post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience with product managers is that they wedge themselves between the business and the technical teams and then wield political power while doing very little. I'm currently trying desperately to get two different PM's to talk to each other so we can be consistent with permissions sets across two different projects. Both projects use the same set of API's. One of the PM's is basically incognito, the other has…

I wonder if part of the gap here is about whether a company is B2B or B2C. In my experience at a largely B2B company, the product managers are people that aren't necessarily technical, but have experience in the relevant domain and meet with customers to find out what they need and coordinate launches etc., with them. I don't know if the same role makes as much sense at a B2C company, so maybe people are B2Bs see the…

I've seen shops hire product managers for INTERNAL customer facing apps, and then have the PMs basically not talk to those customers. They did instead talk extensively to product & tech management as well as the c-suite.

So tech people (even IC non-leads) end up on weekly calls with various internal stakeholders that the PM can't make (literally this is your job dude) and take the brunt of all the feedback/relationship management/etc with the trickier ones.

The worst was when he said he would take the weekly calls with Asia users but wanted to pre-meet with me first and ask I ride along with the weekly user call for a while. So we would pre-meet and then he would ghost on the user call so I end up having two calls instead of one.

Just cargo cult CTOs reading too many books and not actually looking at the evidence in front of their eyes.

Re: The product manager role is a mistake

#290

The thing about PMs. They fulfill a very specific need, and that need is hard to quantify, but I can tell you that without a good PM everything falls apart. Here's a list of what they tend to do: - gather information from users on what is/isn't working for them - gather information from executives about what needs to be done to keep the company working - gather information from industry leaders who may or may not be…

> gather information from users on what is/isn't working for them

trivial and part of analytics and bug reporting that anyone can have a look at and it's the same job that the QA team does too which you are in contact with as a programmer anyway

> gather information from executives about what needs to be done to keep the company working

the boss tells you what to implement whether there is a PM in the middle or not

> gather information from industry leaders who may or may not be part of the company about where the industry is going

reading the news? I think everyone does it enough, it's not a hard job

> work with design

programmers are perfectly able to talk to designers, the issue is solely around who gets to make the decision. And I happen to believe that programmers should always be leading which is probably controversial and its own blog post but shortly summarized the reality is that programmers are at the intersection of the actual implementation, the design and all the decisions. They are in the perfect spot to make the call which features to do and which not to do.

> take all 4 previous points and distill them into what actually needs to be built for a needed feature

that's literally the job of programmers, to figure out how to implement something

> work with engineering to figure out what is practical, vs not, for building, and how long approximately it will take

once again, engineering is at the core of this and can do it on their own

> work with engineers to ensure estimation and team velocity is more or less predictable

this usually means that they want steady output on assigned issues and bugs which makes the job of engineers into a soulless daily issue list grind.

> Now if you take product away, each of the above gets distributed among the engineering team

Precisely, it lands there because it should land there at its natural intersection. The issue is that the engineers aren't given enough rights and decision making authority to make the calls so it becomes an awkward dance where you constantly have to ask for permission to do things because if you ever do something that the leadership doesn't like, you do get bad feedback. As Steve Jobs famously said and I'm paraphrasing: Once the engineers who actually make the products stop being at the center and the salespeople and managers take over it all becomes bad. It really doesn't matter how good a manager is, he will never be better than the guy who actually built the thing.

The reality is that a good PM would be advocating for engineers to be able to work on whatever things they want to work on, which is what never happens of course because that wouldn't help them. You can just look around in this thread: The PMs here all wanted to drive product direction, that's why they got into the job. Guess what every engineer went into the job for: They want to drive product direction too and they actually build the product. Who became an electrical engineer or programmer or game developer only to be told by some PM what to build? The PM is often not even really supposed to be his boss and yet it ends up being that way for absurd reasons. For utterly absurd reasons the PMs are given the ability to make product decisions even though they dont build anything and they aren't leadership. I've had PMs that were engaged, cared about making a product that makes sense etc. And yet ultimately the job is mostly around telling the actual implementors what to do while pretending that they aren't the boss of them but really, that's how it is because they talk to the leadership because what else would they be doing, of course half their job is to make sure that leadership does whatever the PM wants and they are generously given an entire job title just to talk to leadership and customers (which every engineer has to do too of course but with less time)

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