The destruction of Gaza's internet is complete

> Your math is off

The math isn't mine, it's about the size of the attack scaled to the population size. It's 1,300+ dead and it's adjusted to the size of the population. Since the country is small everyone in Israel knows someone who was there. That's the scale of the attack.

> Anyway, my point was that attacks in the south are not mild. They have more victims than the initial attack on Israel itself.

No. You're counting combatants, victims of Hamas and equivocating bombing with cold blood murder. All are false. You're also trusting Hamas, an organization who had a representative on the BBC claiming that they didn't kill any civilians...

* Hamas doesn't mention how many of the dead are actual operatives or were around such operatives. I'm sure that if they do those calculations Israel will come out on top. Israel is subject to intentional law, right now there's a Hauge court investigator in Israel verifying that records are kept and tracking facts. Every bombing must have actionable intel associated with it for proof in court if it is deemed a crime.

* Murder in person is a completely different situation from bombing. There's no comparison. A stray bullet might hit a civilian but the vast majority of the 1,300 dead on October 7th were civilians. This is an organization that sent suicide bombers into busses and restaurants. That is explicit and intentional targeting of civilians which is a crime against humanity. Israel is actually liable in court if it could be proven that it threw a bomb where it shouldn't go.

They literally mutilated bodies, there's a video of a Hamas terrorist just chopping off a guys head with a shovel. They are insane...

> Anyway, my point was that attacks in the south are not mild. They have more victims than the initial attack on Israel itself.

Again. Israel would be 100% liable and would lose US support if it was indeed bombing invalid targets. We can't see the docs but I'm sure the US is reviewing everything as they want to keep their relations in the region.

As proof look at the Hospital bombing. Israel was able to show multiple different evidence that it was not it. It was able to show that over 400 misfires of missiles happened in Gaza. A lot of these "bombings" might be due to such misfires of missiles intended to land in Israel. After all, the Islamic Jihad placed the missiles right next to a Hospital then blamed Israel...

> Stop blocking humanitarian aid,

Israel allowed humanitarian aid and has done so a few days back. I suggest keeping up.

> ceasefire and prisoner swap/release, as always.

No.

A few years ago there was one kidnapped soldier. The Hamas demanded 1,000 prisoners a lot of which had blood on their hands. Israel relented and released them with a promise that they will not attack.

The vast majority of them took part of October 7th attacks. They learned. They kidnapped hundreds of people. They used ceasefire times to dig deeper tunnels and get more weapons.

These people negotiate only for the purpose of coming back with stronger forces. They have no intention whatsoever for peace or co-existance. Their charter explicitly calls for the destruction of Israel. They don't care about peaceful co-existence or the lives of their own people. All negotiation is just a ploy with these people.

> Then some political solution involving UN peacekeaping mission, or something.

Sure. After the Hamas is completely destroyed. It is an organization that cannot exist. It destroyed the Oslo accord and has done tremendous damage to the Palestinian people as well as Israel.

> It kinda needs trustworthy figures on both sides and a lot of effort at reconciliation on both sides.

You need to understand that it is an evil organization that executes LGBT people. Considers wife beating to be normal marriage. Educates its children that murdering Jews will get them to heaven.

Benjamin Netanyahu is a lying a*hole. But they are at a different level of corrupt, murderous, fanatic lunatics. There can never be anything as long as they exist. They need to stand trial for crimes against humanity and spend the rest of their lives in prison. Don't use nonsense like "both sides". Then some political solution involving UN peacekeaping mission, or something. It's been done in many places already. It kinda needs trustworthy figures on both sides and a lot of effort at reconciliation on both sides.

> Destroying Gaza

Gaza isn't destroyed. Some neighborhoods. Sure. Specifically the "rich" areas where the Hamas honchos live off the money they stole from the poor Gaza residence.

Unfortunately, some destruction is inevitable in war. This is a war. There are kidnapped people and an organization intent on destroying Israel. The goal of the war isn't to destroy Gaza. It's to destroy the Hamas.

> severely damaging the west bank economy by heavy restrictions associated with a prolonged war

The war is damaging to Israel too. It wants it over quickly. Obviously the Hamas will never surrender so it will take a while. That's the only option as explained above.

> making people there even more frustrated with PA than they already are

The PA has nothing to do with Gaza right now.

> just doesn't seem like it will lead to anything good for regular Israelis.

In the short term: bringing back the kidnapped children is something good. Bringing down the Hamas is something good. Stopping missiles that are fired daily (even today) on Israeli cities is something good.

In the long run ending the Hamas might finally open a path to a Palestinian state. That would be a great thing for everyone involved (Israelis too). The Hamas is the main reason the Oslo accord fell apart. I'm not sure how this would work but I'm hopeful in that regard.

There's plenty of circumstantial evidence to support this. Somehow Israel, which has one of the best spy programs on the globe, completely missed any and all planning of Hamas forces to... drive a tractor into a fence for several hours.... but they're perfectly capable of coming up with calls from Hamas militants after the fact. And their utterly superior military force was somehow unable to stop this supposed massacre for hours after it had begun? There's being drunk on kool-aid and then there's snorting the powder straight out of the package. And Hamas, which launched 36K projectiles from 2001 to 2023 at Israel and managed to kill less than 100 people, magically was able to kill 1400 people in no time flat, and just trust them because they're Israel. Hamas is able to list the names and ages and localities of every single person that Israel slaughters, but Israel somehow doesn't have the advanced capabilities to do the same.

It's an awful funny coincidence that Netanyahu, who had been under political and prosecutorial pressure, suddenly and magically found himself a new conflict to embroil himself in so that he could take additional powers for himself.

Too much of a wall of text and too much reactions to individual points instead of general ideas. There's no way to discuss like this... anyway I took in your arguments, and will refine my thinking according to some that I don't reject already. Like the hospital bombings, or enough aid being allowed in, numbers of killed (you're conflating various branches of Hamas), LGBT executions, and some other things.

As for Al-Ahli bombing, I don't trust IDF on that one. Too much mis-direction early on. Like showing video from AJ arabic (which I managed to still capture in FullHD via youtube livestream, and scroll back to various times prior to the event and see wider context, geolocate, identify camera direction, etc., so when IDF showed their map with rocket paths + AJ video, I knew they're not serious, and "proof" is just propaganda in this instance) NYT a few days later came to the same conclusion as to IDF claims about AJ video. So that's just inconclusive, can be either way to me as who did it, atm.

As for my argument around Gaza destruction, that's refering to the final state (not the current one). If Hamas destruction is the goal, Israel will have to plow through the entire strip for that to happen. North is pretty much destroyed already, and IDF didn't really enter the city, yet in any meaningful ways. IDF will also likely want to destroy the tunnels, which is likely to cause massive destruction to the city, unless they'll use some method that will preserve the city.

What they are supposed to do? To just do nothing and let terrorists grow stronger and do what they want?

> Israel's retaliation is war crimes, terrorism.

You're wrong but if you repeat it a thousand times maybe it will become truth. A war crime is using civilians as human shield. Terrorism is indiscriminately launching rockets at civilians areas, of which ~30% hits Gaza. Terrorism is killing civilians purposefully in barbaric ways to send a message and incite fear. Hamas and Iran are the architects of what is happening today in Gaza.

> When people are asking for evidence. They are asking about hard evidence that prove the claim.

Are you for real expecting this for an ongoing war still in its early days? I'm not saying those questions shouldn't be asked and of course the IDF will make mistakes but you are being unreasonable.

> They can say whatever they want and you can do, but without providing evidence this becomes a lie.

It's not necessarily a lie, just not verified yet.

> If you want to say hamas lie too that's fine but completely irrelevant in our context here.

It's not irrelevant. Hamas and the IDF are not equivalent.

It's a long established fact that Hamas modus operandi is terrorism. Recently the Hamas lied that the IDF bombed an hospital and killed 500 Palestinians, there is ample evidence that this was a blatant lie. All over the Internet there are reports/videos that show Hamas faking stuff to generate commotion.

Israel military intelligence is one of the best in the world. The IDF go steps further than any other country in history to minimize collateral damage. They warn civilians in the area before striking, they use roof knockers.